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mandurphy  
#1 Posted : Thursday, December 28, 2023 10:29:29 PM(UTC)
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Bonding support was added into SRT 1.5 about a year ago and I’d love to see support for it in vMix. More details are on the srt github: https://github.com/Haivi...s/bonding-quick-start.md
BARP  
#2 Posted : Friday, December 29, 2023 11:23:28 AM(UTC)
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+1 especially on the receive side for remote cameras sending SRT into vMix
mavik  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, January 2, 2024 7:58:36 PM(UTC)
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According to the provided link there are two options for SRT bonding available. Broadcast or Main/Backup. Where broadcast ist sending the same data over all connections, or main/backup where, in case of a failure, the connection jumps from main to backup. Both methods will make the connection more reliable but I guess this is not what you might want/understand of a bonded connection.
A bonded connection is usually a combination of different ISPs into a stronger more powerfull unbreakable connection. This is not happening here with SRT Bonding. I would strongly recommend a bonding device you send your multiple ISPs over and use SRT over this strong bonded connection.
The Kiloview P2 SRT encoder comes with this capability and is very much affordable. Feel free to PM me if you need further details.
mandurphy  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, January 3, 2024 10:08:03 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
According to the provided link there are two options for SRT bonding available. Broadcast or Main/Backup. Where broadcast ist sending the same data over all connections, or main/backup where, in case of a failure, the connection jumps from main to backup. Both methods will make the connection more reliable but I guess this is not what you might want/understand of a bonded connection.
A bonded connection is usually a combination of different ISPs into a stronger more powerfull unbreakable connection. This is not happening here with SRT Bonding. I would strongly recommend a bonding device you send your multiple ISPs over and use SRT over this strong bonded connection.
The Kiloview P2 SRT encoder comes with this capability and is very much affordable. Feel free to PM me if you need further details.


Yeah. I’m thinking this would be used to make a stronger, more resilient connection, rather than just a faster connection. I guess this would be more like link aggregation or load balancing rather than bonding. The bonded language is what Haivision is using in these docs so I’m also using it. Would still like to see this natively supported in vMix.

Thanks for the Kiloview suggestion. Can it send a bonded signal directly to vMix or does it need to pass through a server, software or second device first?
ovonder  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 3, 2024 8:46:25 PM(UTC)
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You need to setup the Kilolink Cloud Bonding server. It's a (free) docker installation.
There is one catch, with the P1/2 you can setup multiple end-points (SRT/RTMP at the same time).
However, in bonding mode you only turn on (connect to) bonding and not stream SRT/RTMP at the same time.
From the bonding server you restream to SRT and/or RTMP. Where the server can be the SRT listener since it has a public IP address.

The installation is not difficult. I have done it many times for clients.
For a single ingest (1x Kiloview P1 or P2) i normally use a very small cloud server (2 vcpu, 4GB ram, 40GB disk).





Speegs  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 11, 2024 10:52:58 AM(UTC)
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+1 my streaming server software supports SRT bonding as of about 4 months ago (yet to try it). So ideally could add 2-3 internet connections to a PC and it could bond and keep a video up even if a mobile network goes down or becomes unreliable.

Adding Kiloviews while nice is not the way to go for me (I have 3 older models in the cupboard I don't use anymore from before Vmix supported SRT), I would rather not add another 67ms of latency and another hunk of junk to carry around to an event. If it can be done pure software.

I prefer have great laptop+vmix+planeticket+magewellcapture or NDI can do approach :) Hate to agree with Elon Musk, but the best part is no part.

Vmix are from Australia, they know that happens :) Remember Optus recently, but it's not just them. 3 Mobile phones, 3 Mobile Networks, Ethernet onsite (sometimes), SRT Bonding and you are probably unstoppable. Unless the laptop fails, then you are having a bad day anyway as you can't get Vmix running.

That's a use case mapped out and I know this will probably take time so I'll end up buy another Kiloview encoder I won't need (good products, just find it's a short life product in my workflows and gets quickly superseded by Vmix itself). Anyone want a KV-E2, used slightly in perfect condition.
Speegs  
#7 Posted : Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:00:25 AM(UTC)
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I've tried Speedify and for me was more trouble than it was worth. Others seem to make it work out, I'm not a fan subscribed for 3 years didn't help when I needed it to. So I very much like the idea of SRT Bonding. Essentially VPN/Internet bonding adds another place things can go wrong. Peplink Bonding + Server Software looked interesting, but never really stretched the budget that far, rather better cameras.

BTW: I might be a bit special, I streaming Camera -> Vmix -> Server -> Anyone with a browser 500ms - 800ms. Not much room to add crap in the way of the stream (unless it does something useful). Even NDI I use sparingly as it ads latency. I'd have a 300ms viewer latency target if I could do it without sending a Kiloview Decoder (yes done that before for special functions), very possible Kiloview Encoder -> Kiloview Decoder that's a rare possibility where I can supply hardware to the viewer.
mtone  
#8 Posted : Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:16:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Speegs Go to Quoted Post
I've tried Speedify and for me was more trouble than it was worth. Others seem to make it work out, I'm not a fan subscribed for 3 years didn't help when I needed it to.


what was your experience with speedify ? did it not improve the bandwidth enough or just not work properly ? it seems like a good budget option for anyone doing basic streaming on location ?
Speegs  
#9 Posted : Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:20:02 AM(UTC)
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Main issue with speedify is it confused some things in windows occasionally. It was not helping latency. When I got to the point of trying my own Speedify server, it got too expensive (now with 1 point of failure too). Speedify would move servers in the middle of a stream not because I wanted it to, I guess Speedify managing load on their network. I stream 8 hour events frequently.

The public speedify servers here in Australia at least, were disappointing for me. If for some reason it went to an overseas server. That's game over in my use case. I found on shorter streams I had some go smoothly.

I might be a bit special as bonding and latency are not friends. However if it's in the software I use anyway, probably will not add much latency.

Fast good internet is the best if you can get it, so I do focus my efforts on that :) Antennas, positioning of equipment. Sending a starlink in advance to the event if possible. At least they are pretty consistent at 15mbit upload in Australia as long as the weather is good and you can get open sky at the location. 5G can also be fantastic in some locations, but not so much in others. It can really bog down adding 1000-5000 people into a location as well. On all networks, but some more than others. Testing, Testing, Testing as they say, but then the people come and the environment can change on you.

Right now you are thinking what the hell, I stream live auctions (plus run all the IT for those too at the same time), so latency is important and a balance of reliability and interactivity. Sometimes at Farms, Show Grounds, Paddocks, mostly in the City with a fibre or NBN connection (those fail too, so I go farm mode when that happens). I don't pick the location, I just make it work, no matter what :)

Every auction can be different, sometimes the most challenging ones have the lowest budget, but still they have the expectations of the higher budget ones.
Speegs  
#10 Posted : Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:44:08 AM(UTC)
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Before Starlink, I just couldn't do some locations at all. I hate lugging that dish around, not very practical. Looking forward to the smaller units :)

One of the more interesting I load balanced 3 starlink connections on residential plans. Was surprisingly effective. Not for just streaming the entire event.
mtone  
#11 Posted : Thursday, January 11, 2024 3:18:57 PM(UTC)
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appreciate the insight.. ive been trying to gauge how effective it might be in my situation.. for the most part i only need something to improve reliability beyond what a single 4G connection offer.. latency isnt huge concern for my scenario..

with that in mind would you still say speedify offers some noticeable improvement with redundancy if you're using at least two connections ? is it obviously better than a single 4G or just more trouble than its worth ?
Speegs  
#12 Posted : Saturday, January 13, 2024 7:55:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mtone Go to Quoted Post
appreciate the insight.. ive been trying to gauge how effective it might be in my situation.. for the most part i only need something to improve reliability beyond what a single 4G connection offer.. latency isnt huge concern for my scenario..

with that in mind would you still say speedify offers some noticeable improvement with redundancy if you're using at least two connections ? is it obviously better than a single 4G or just more trouble than its worth ?


It has redundant mode. I found that could help for sure, but still relies on the speedify server to be more reliable than what's inbetween. Those servers being used by many, might go offline due to a DDOS attack or something like that. Speedify then tends to transfer you to another server magically which is good. That process is not instant. I've also had to restart their software on occasion out of the blue. So the software itself can cause a problem. Solution "reboot" but that's not what you want to do.

Therefore I came to the conclusion between the client application and the unknown reliability factor of their servers (which tend to go well most of the time). I was better off just manually switching to another connection.

A simple but effective way, is putting 2 or more connections on the same subnet. Disabling DHCP on one router and changing your gateway IP manually if needed. Not very sophisticated, but that actually works.

Another way I often use a Ubiquiti Edge Router, with it's line balancing and failover (not bonding). It will detect a failed connection relatively quickly (it pings with a watchdog helper in the background) and that can of course be tuned via the command line if you want it to switch faster.

The Edge Router series are very cost effective (can do 1Gbit NAT/Routing in most models) and used to be easy to find in stock, getting a bit harder since the covid chip shortages but hopefully that comes back to normal. They are small multi port ethernet routers, a bit techy to configure, but are reasonably configurable. You just need 4G/5G that has ethernet ports.

The next level up is a true bonding router, but good luck getting a replacement on a weekend. So you need to buy 2. Kiloview has products might be the way to go there if you only need video redundancy. If you need more networking redundancy other choices are around.

I did just see the Kiloview P3 on their website. Looks interesting like the TVU type units that have been around for a while. Some nice specs on the P3, I'll find out how much it costs. Then really you probably need to buy 2 in the long run.
mtone  
#13 Posted : Sunday, January 14, 2024 1:59:24 PM(UTC)
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thanks again.. i'll try speedify and see how it goes. have you see this router...

https://www.mwave.com.au...router-with-wifi-ac47423

it looks sorta interesting for redundancy purposes but not sure exactly how useful it would be compared to speedify with a couple of 4G connections anyway ?
Speegs  
#14 Posted : Thursday, March 28, 2024 10:42:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mtone Go to Quoted Post
thanks again.. i'll try speedify and see how it goes. have you see this router...
https://www.mwave.com.au...router-with-wifi-ac47423


It's not a bad router, but only does one 4g connection at a time. So not that helpful for bonding.
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