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thisisntjared  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, November 7, 2023 4:48:18 AM(UTC)
thisisntjared

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We are looking to update our solution to expand how we use vMix to handle

3x 4k@60 inputs
2x 1080@60 inputs

I see the reference systems are pointing to x299 motherboards, but most discussions here are centered around the preferred 12th and 13th gen Intel. I assume for PCIe 4/5.0 and DDR5 as well as more powerful processors. Given the need:
1) Is there any penalty in going with a Z790 motherboard over x299 or other server motherboards?
2) Would there be a preference for an i9-13900 vs an i7-13700?
3) Are there other questions I should be asking? :)

In either case, we are assuming a RTX 4080 would get the job done and we are narrowing in, hoping one of these would fit the bill:
https://www.avadirect.co...igure/17094485#ln-783398
https://www.avadirect.co...igure/17094484#ln-782920
IceStream  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, November 7, 2023 9:53:04 PM(UTC)
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@ thisisntjared

Your questions are best answered in these videos:

?t=446





Ice
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thisisntjared on 12/2/2023(UTC)
paco3346  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:51:50 PM(UTC)
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The biggest limiting factor when it comes to building a powerful rig is number of PCIe lanes.

Server / workstation hardware is well equipped for this why is why you see it come up in discussion.

You didn't mention what kind of inputs you're expecting to use (SDI, NDI, HDMI) or what kind of cards you plan to use (Decklink, Kona) but I assume it'll be a PCIe card. Figure out your cards first and then work backward from the number of lanes you need.

Note that PCIe 5 isn't going to really help you much as most I/O cards on the market are still PCIe 3 and there are very few boards out that with PCIe switches that can take 5.0 lanes and split them up into 3.0 lanes such that you don't lose bandwidth. The _vast_ majority of motherboards are simply going to bifurcate your lanes so that the full 5.0 speed is available to a 3.0 card. I'm not advising that you avoid 5.0 but if your choice is between few 5.0 lanes and many 4.0 lanes you should definitely pick the higher lane count.

One other thing to note- multi CPU setups can work but they introduce extra latency as the data has to pass between the CPU fabric to reach devices attached to the other CPU. You should prefer single CPU systems with as many lanes as you can get.
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thisisntjared on 12/2/2023(UTC)
Kayo33  
#4 Posted : Wednesday, November 8, 2023 3:24:06 AM(UTC)
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As mentioned above, it is the number of lanes that the processor can manage + the slots available on the motherboard that will determine the number of inputs and possible resolutions.

The i9-10980xe, even though it lags behind the gen 13s in the benchmark, still holds its own, with its 48 lanes and x299 motherboards that allow several 3.0 x8 pcie cards for 4k.

example:
ASUS WS X299 SAGE/10G motherboard = 7 x PCIe 3.0 x16
operating modes with all 7 slots occupied
x16/x8/x8/x8/x8/x8/x8

it could be a 3.0 x16 graphics card + 4 x 3.0 x8 capture cards (16 + 4x8 = 48 lanes)
6 x pcie 3.0 x8 capture cards (6x8 = 48 lanes)

(as the graphics card will be absent or in 3.0 x16 format with this system, the best option is to have a separate streaming encoder, and use graphics card for multiscreen monitoring).

but then it's the processor that might not be able to keep up, depending on requirements at the same time as all the inputs (ndi,encoding,record,etc...)
see system references on vmix site

for more possibilities, go on a xeon or ryzen threadripper pro platform

For 3 x 4k60 and 2 x 1080p60 in sdi/hdmi, there are motherboards where this is possible on socket 1700 (intel gen 12/13/14) but most of the time it will always slow down the graphics card a little because if capture cards are connected to all the ports, the graphics card slot will operate at x8 instead of x16.

Intel 13/14 gen only manage 20 lanes cpu

the z790 chipset can manage 20 lanes pcie 4.0 and 8 lanes pcie 3.0 but with a maximum throughput of PCIe 4.0 x8 (=16 GB/s)
DMI 4.0 X8 = pcie 4.0 x8 = bus between cpu and chipset

UserPostedImage

(taking into account all the ports which depend on the chipset = sound card, ethernet port, usb ports, slot pcie, ect...)
see diagram of the desired motherboard when available)

be careful, sometimes on certain motherboards, plugging an SSD into one of the available M.2 slots can deactivate a PCIe slot
you must study the motherboard manuals carefully before purchasing depending on the planned configuration

You might as well take an i9, it minimizes the risk and perhaps allows you to monitor in the event of adding inputs

but MSI PRO Z790 does not allow you to have the desired configuration because

slot pcie 1 = 5.0 x16 = 16 lanes cpu
slot M.2 4.0 x4 = 4 lanes cpu
total 20 lanes cpu = max

slot pcie 2 = 3.0 x1 = 1 lane chipset = 1080p60 x1 = 0.5 GB/s
slot pcie 3 = 4.0 x4 = 4 lanes chipset = 1080p60 x4 or 4k60p x1 = 2 GB/s
slot pcie 4 = 3.0 x1 = 1 lane chipset = 1080p60 x1 = 0.5 GB/s
total = 4 GB/s out of a total of 16

+ 4 slots M.2 4.0 x4 also managed by the chipset
which share the rest of the bandwidth between the chipset and the CPU (in addition to the peripherals depending on the chipset usb ports, ethernet ports, etc.)


MSI MEG Z790 ACE is the only one that will be able to do the desired configuration with some limitations to manage depending on the components

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

example: with SDI cards

MSI MEG Z790 ACE

slot pcie 1 = RTX 4080 (work in x8) = 8 lanes cpu
slot pcie 2 = decklink 8k pro (4 x 4k60p) = 8 lanes cpu
slot 1 M.2 4.0 x4 = samsugn 990 pro = 4 lanes cpu

slot pcie 3 = declink duo 2 (4 x 1080p60) = 4 lanes chipset = 2 GB/s
slot 2 M.2 4.0 x4 = samsung 990 pro 2 = 4 lanes chipset = 8 GB/s
speed depending on the chipset peripherals used at the same time, adapted by the chipset to avoid throttling

so config with msi ace and i9 to choose
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thisisntjared on 12/2/2023(UTC)
thisisntjared  
#5 Posted : Friday, December 1, 2023 6:56:16 AM(UTC)
thisisntjared

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Originally Posted by: Kayo33 Go to Quoted Post

but MSI PRO Z790 does not allow you to have the desired configuration because

slot pcie 1 = 5.0 x16 = 16 lanes cpu
slot M.2 4.0 x4 = 4 lanes cpu
total 20 lanes cpu = max

slot pcie 2 = 3.0 x1 = 1 lane chipset = 1080p60 x1 = 0.5 GB/s
slot pcie 3 = 4.0 x4 = 4 lanes chipset = 1080p60 x4 or 4k60p x1 = 2 GB/s
slot pcie 4 = 3.0 x1 = 1 lane chipset = 1080p60 x1 = 0.5 GB/s
total = 4 GB/s out of a total of 16

+ 4 slots M.2 4.0 x4 also managed by the chipset
which share the rest of the bandwidth between the chipset and the CPU (in addition to the peripherals depending on the chipset usb ports, ethernet ports, etc.)

...

example: with SDI cards

MSI MEG Z790 ACE

slot pcie 1 = RTX 4080 (work in x8) = 8 lanes cpu
slot pcie 2 = decklink 8k pro (4 x 4k60p) = 8 lanes cpu
slot 1 M.2 4.0 x4 = samsugn 990 pro = 4 lanes cpu

slot pcie 3 = declink duo 2 (4 x 1080p60) = 4 lanes chipset = 2 GB/s
slot 2 M.2 4.0 x4 = samsung 990 pro 2 = 4 lanes chipset = 8 GB/s
speed depending on the chipset peripherals used at the same time, adapted by the chipset to avoid throttling

so config with msi ace and i9 to choose

Thank you (and paco and ice stream!) for the guidance. I forgot to mention that right now, everything is NDI, but that could change. I could not justify paying more for x299. Your specific understanding brought us to purchase the ASUS ProArt Z790-CREATOR to allow both pcie1 and 2 to run 8 lanes to the cpu each.
pcie 1 5.0x8 RTX4080
pcie 2 5.0x8 open for future capture card?
pcie 3 4.0x4 intel x710da 4xSFP+
2x m.2 4.0x4 (to chipset) samsung 990 pro

When adding a capture card, we will be sure Hoping to set it up in the coming weeks!
Kayo33  
#6 Posted : Friday, December 1, 2023 8:08:21 AM(UTC)
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Intel X710DA4 is pcie 3.0 x8

so you'll need to plug it into the pcie 2 slot, not the pcie 3 slot

on the ASUS ProArt Z790-CREATOR, there are also 2 x thunderbolt 4 ports that can be used with Thunderbolt 3 expansion chassis for PCIe cards such as the sonnet echo range.
the most important thing is not to use cards with more than x4
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thisisntjared on 12/2/2023(UTC)
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