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fluozh  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, September 21, 2021 12:05:58 PM(UTC)
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Hello, I'm currently moving our production to NDI.
We're using vMix and Birddog converters to move NDI from current HDMI/SDI based production, but I'm getting source drops in vMix statistics.
I could not see any dropped/struggled frame in program visually though, I'm still worrying about those drops.
If I can decrease or eliminate source drops, or got any advice, please let me know and help.

We're using following equipments :
1x NETGAER M4250 for dedicated NDI switch(configured for NDI4 profile)
1x Workstation PC with vMix 4K(i9-9900K/RTX3070. 2x 1Gbps ethernet port)
1x Laptop with vMix 4K(i7-7700HQ/GTX1060. 1x 1Gbps ethernet port)
2x Birddog converters(Flex4KBP,Studio, latest firmware. PoE)

All vMix PCs are configured for NDI(QoS disabled, EEE disabled etc)
NDI library updated(NDI5 dll)
All Ethernet cable is CAT5A or CAT6.

It's using ~700Mbps with 4 1080p59.94 sources.

If it's normal to have few source drops in NDI production, I think I'm fine.
If any of you running NDI production with no source drops, let me know!

Thanks.
mavik  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, September 22, 2021 2:55:16 AM(UTC)
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with 700mbps you are at the upper end of what is possible in a 1G network. The beauty with the birddogs is that you are able to control the bandwidth. You have two options. #1 stepping up to 10G network. #2 lowering the bandwidth of the signals.
I made a video about NDI bandwidth consumption that might help to understand it better.
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fluozh on 9/22/2021(UTC)
fluozh  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, September 22, 2021 11:16:08 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post

with 700mbps you are at the upper end of what is possible in a 1G network. The beauty with the birddogs is that you are able to control the bandwidth. You have two options. #1 stepping up to 10G network. #2 lowering the bandwidth of the signals.
I made a video about NDI bandwidth consumption that might help to understand it better.



Thank you mavik! I'll buy SFP+ 10G NIC and cable for 10G connection. Also I try to lower bitrate by BD converters.
I'll post update once I got one.
fluozh  
#4 Posted : Saturday, September 25, 2021 12:52:55 AM(UTC)
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Update: I've installed 10Gbps NIC(10Gtek X520-10G-1S-X8 1*SFP+ card) and connect to M4250 with DAC cable.
Linked up, identified 10Gbps correctly, but still getting drops.
By checking vMix statistics, "Source Drop" and "Resync" are increasing(resync value is close to SD)
again I'm not sure if its normal to drop few frames in NDI, or I should worry it.
But if I can decrease source drop somehow, I'm willing to try it.
AudioGreg  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, September 28, 2021 2:07:48 PM(UTC)
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I'm seeing this happen on a few machines. I have a very stable 10G NDI optimized network with no issues in the past. We have recently updated these i9-9900K/Quadro boxes to vMix 24.0.0.66, and also upgraded our NDI tools to v5. Seems like one or both of these upgrades might be contributing...I have older versions of vMix23/NDI4 still running that isn't doing this on the same network with the same sources. By "this" I mean I'm seeing what fluozh is seeing in the input stats - source drop increasing at an unacceptable rate. If you look at motion content, like shooting my ceiling fan, or something like a long train going past, you can see it pause/freeze for a frame or 3 and then pop back to normal motion. Happens randomly every 5-15 seconds. It's not terrible, but on the other hand it isn't right either.

More testing required. Anywhere I can get older versions of vMix so I can roll back for elimination?
fluozh  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, September 28, 2021 10:55:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AudioGreg Go to Quoted Post
I'm seeing this happen on a few machines. I have a very stable 10G NDI optimized network with no issues in the past. We have recently updated these i9-9900K/Quadro boxes to vMix 24.0.0.66, and also upgraded our NDI tools to v5. Seems like one or both of these upgrades might be contributing...I have older versions of vMix23/NDI4 still running that isn't doing this on the same network with the same sources. By "this" I mean I'm seeing what fluozh is seeing in the input stats - source drop increasing at an unacceptable rate. If you look at motion content, like shooting my ceiling fan, or something like a long train going past, you can see it pause/freeze for a frame or 3 and then pop back to normal motion. Happens randomly every 5-15 seconds. It's not terrible, but on the other hand it isn't right either.

More testing required. Anywhere I can get older versions of vMix so I can roll back for elimination?



That is interesting, I thought later vMix and NDI5 is more stable for receiving sources.
If possible, I want to downgrade my vMix and NDI Tools and see how it goes...
mavik  
#7 Posted : Thursday, September 30, 2021 4:10:11 AM(UTC)
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Try NDI4 first. I guess that is the most critical part
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fluozh on 9/30/2021(UTC)
fluozh  
#8 Posted : Thursday, September 30, 2021 4:01:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
Try NDI4 first. I guess that is the most critical part



Tried NDI4 dll(Rolling back from NDI5.x .dll). All of my converters only supports NDI4 but still no change.

but I have figured out few tinhs.
When my video has a lot of movements, it may cause source drops(NINTENDO Switch's SSBU causes so many drops).
And my obs-ndi had best result compared to other Birddog/Magewell converters or vMix.

I'm still wondering why this happens. perhaps encoding issue?

https://pbs.twimg.com/me...ormat=png&name=small
umek  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, November 10, 2021 3:17:14 AM(UTC)
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Whats your CPU usage in task manager?
Does it go over 50% when you see dropped frames?
fluozh  
#10 Posted : Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:43:27 PM(UTC)
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Late res sorry!
No, it keeps low because its not complicated scene/graphic.
I'm trying to figure out this problem with vMix 25 preview with NDI5 RUDP.
mjgraves  
#11 Posted : Friday, December 24, 2021 3:45:02 AM(UTC)
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I'd like to offer an additional idea. You don't need to go from 1G to 10G, which is a large leap in cost.

You can use 2 (or more) 1G network connections to your vMix host. If you're pushing against the limit of what a 1G link can reliably sustain, just adding a second link gives you significant breathing room without much additional cost.

I have had projects where I was saved by the fact that my vMix host has two NICs built-in.

There are also 2.5G and 5G NIC/switches.
fluozh  
#12 Posted : Friday, December 24, 2021 6:48:26 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mjgraves Go to Quoted Post
I'd like to offer an additional idea. You don't need to go from 1G to 10G, which is a large leap in cost.

You can use 2 (or more) 1G network connections to your vMix host. If you're pushing against the limit of what a 1G link can reliably sustain, just adding a second link gives you significant breathing room without much additional cost.

I have had projects where I was saved by the fact that my vMix host has two NICs built-in.

There are also 2.5G and 5G NIC/switches.


That is good idea, but I do not care much about cost if I can use stable NDI. Even with 10G or more.(at least its cheaper than SMPTE2110 equpments, right?)

Also I'm worrying about that multiple NIC should use Multi-TCP connection for optimizing bandwidth, which is legacy method.(you can check them in NDI Access Manager)

I prefer using Single-TCP or RUDP with 10G network.
I'll choose way you suggested if we cannot use 10G.
NiBTour  
#13 Posted : Thursday, December 30, 2021 6:15:13 PM(UTC)
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I've always had dropped frames with birddogs and up until they finally caught up to everyone else by specifying bandwidth usage (Magewell had this from the start) I found the quality and the source drop a common theme with birddogs. I still love them though because I'm crazy. Anyway, i see you have a pro convert from magewell and those I've always had rock-solid performance with and if I didn't it was something else like nic or switch. I know your switch is optimized for NDI but i have yet to have access to those models so I'll ignore that for now. I also saw you updated to 10gig which you could have used multilink but as you said i like the 10gig single link regardless, but not a fan of the nic model you picked (gtek) since it's a hit and miss with the controller (i'm a Marvell’s AQtion chip guy).

But let's say they are working fine I would check your device settings and your advanced nic settings to make sure power management is off, plus Link State Power Management is off under Power settings plus be sure to have it set to high performance (I'm sure you have) and within the nic settings be sure (not sure exactly what is available in the gTek because i doubt its a true intel chip) your buffers are maxed out both receive and transmit and turn off any low energy settings. With the gTek i might even turn off the adaptive interrupts but as i'm sitting here waiting to get into my hotel room i'm shooting these off the top of my head. Also, I noticed when i was using UDP vs. TCP and had both magewell and birddogs they didn't play nice together so i would turn off UDP and change the setting in vMix to not favor UDP and i want to say they resolved everything with magewell but it could be the opposite. Basically saying if i had TCP set they both didn;t do well but if i set UDP then one of them did or vice versa can't remember. when i get back to my lab or if i can access it via my hotel I'll confirm. but make sure your nics are optimized and since your 10gig be sure that your Jumbo Packet is off as well.

with all that said i rarely get a 100% no drop frame when using birddogs unless i set their bandwidth settings lower then i would like so i always use Magewell and we have game feeds coming in at RGB 4:4:4 and they don't have an issue whereas the birddogs can have issues with the game inputs but never the camera ones since their usually 420 or 422 8bit.

Keep in mind all my birddogs are Rev3 (like their first-gen studios) so they could be better now. i want to play with your switch though :) those AV Netgear i heard are awesome. and yes me saying i want to play with your switch sounded a little fun. good luck I'll check if I ever get into my room.


-King
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fluozh on 1/1/2022(UTC)
fluozh  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, January 5, 2022 9:04:18 AM(UTC)
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Thanks King!
I heared NewTek's TriCaster/3Play products are using AQtion NIC for NDI so I should have bought those insted of gtek.

afaik TCP is better than UDP(at least pure UDP), because Single TCP is more newer transport protocol for NDI.(RUDP is much newer but magewell and BD does not support it for now).
NIC settings(jumbo packet and so) are optimized for NDI. but as you said I'm using gTek's chip so this could be a trouble with NDI.

I could not check my game feeds were Ybnbr 422 or RGB444 yet, but I was using NINTENDO switch for game feed so perhaps it can be RGB444.
I will try "limited" color range with lowered bandwidth setting!

Thanks King, let me know once you get good result. good luck!
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