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FrankLeggett  
#1 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:40:02 AM(UTC)
FrankLeggett

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I have a Asus ROG Zephyrus M Laptop as per the Sapphire reference system and I have been having all sorts of NDI issues with it when I connect it up to my system which currently runs a Tricaster Mini without any problems. I have just run NDI Analysis and it states that the NDI streams coming from the Laptop are NDI/HX which I would have thought was impossible.

I have the latest NVidia Driver I haven't installed GeForce Experience and I have the latest version of NDI Tools.

I have tested my old Laptop a 5 year old HP i7 and the NDI streams from this are Full NDI and cause no issues.

I have also tested my Desktop which is a 4 year old HP i7 and that streams full NDI.

I connected to the network with both a USB 3 to GBit adapter and a Thunderbolt 3 dock with a Gigabit socket and the results are the same.

Does anyone have any advice. I have posted on the Facebook NDI page and the Newtek NDI Forum and have also set a request to Newtek support but I haven't had a response from anyone.

Hope someone on this forum can help me clear this up.
zenvideo  
#2 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 1:43:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FrankLeggett Go to Quoted Post
I have just run NDI Analysis and it states that the NDI streams coming from the Laptop are NDI/HX which I would have thought was impossible.

Me too. What is it that's generating the NDI stream(s) on the laptop?

And perhaps you could post a screen grab of the NDI Analysis output window where it shows the stream to be NDI|HX?
mjgraves  
#3 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 2:46:22 AM(UTC)
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What sort of measured network data rates are you seeing? Does it correspond to NDI or NDI|HX. I would think that this was more likely a software problem. Perhaps something is in some way declaring itself to be NDI|HX when it's not. Could be a simple as a wrong port number being used.
FrankLeggett  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 3:33:44 AM(UTC)
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This is the readings from NDI Analysis for both my laptop and my desktop

1: name="ASUS-VIDEO-LAPTOP (vMix - Output 1)"
host="192.168.79.38"
port="5961"
type="NDI|HX"
2: name="BUSINESS (vMix - Output 1)"
host="192.168.79.39"
port="5961"
type="NDI"

As you can see the Laptop output is stating it is a NDI/HX source but how is this possible. Below are the source readings for both NDI streams:
Laptop Stream
10:20:15.723: Video receiver creation succeeded.
10:20:15.723: Audio receiver creation succeeded.
10:20:23.730: Video connection opened.
10:20:23.733: Audio connection opened.
10:20:23.737: Tally program=false preview=true
10:20:23.737: Product, Long name=vMix 4K - 22.0.0.66 x64
10:20:23.737: Product, Short name=vMix
10:20:23.738: Product, Model=4K
10:20:23.738: Product, Manufacturer=vMix
10:20:23.738: Product, Version=22.0.0.66
10:20:23.739: Audio format changed. 48000Hz, 2 channels.
10:20:23.763: Video format changed. 1920x1080, progressive, aspect ratio=1.78, frame-rate=50.00, no alpha channel.
10:20:25.739: Video data rate (MBps). Avg=129.23
10:20:25.739: Video size (kB). Min=277.90 Avg=310.10 +/- 23.93 Max=359.46
10:20:25.740: Video recv (mS). Min=10.22 Avg=20.00 +/- 3.91 Max=30.93
10:20:25.740: Video send (mS). Min=17.77 Avg=20.00 +/- 0.87 Max=21.98
10:20:25.741: Audio data rate (MBps). Avg=0.00
10:20:25.741: Audio size (kB). Min=0.00 Avg=0.00 +/- 0.00 Max=0.00
10:20:25.741: Audio recv (mS). Min=12.95 Avg=20.01 +/- 2.86 Max=26.99
10:20:25.742: Audio send (mS). Min=19.45 Avg=20.00 +/- 0.28 Max=20.99
10:20:25.744: Video receiver destroyed.
10:20:25.761: Audio receiver destroyed.

Desktop Stream
10:21:31.626: Video receiver creation succeeded.
10:21:31.626: Audio receiver creation succeeded.
10:21:39.630: Video connection opened.
10:21:39.631: Audio connection opened.
10:21:39.632: Product, Long name=vMix 4K - 22.0.0.60 x64
10:21:39.632: Product, Short name=vMix
10:21:39.633: Product, Model=4K
10:21:39.633: Product, Manufacturer=vMix
10:21:39.635: Product, Version=22.0.0.60
10:21:39.643: Audio format changed. 48000Hz, 2 channels.
10:21:40.670: Video format changed. 1920x1080, progressive, aspect ratio=1.78, frame-rate=50.00, no alpha channel.
10:21:41.642: Video data rate (MBps). Avg=99.22
10:21:41.642: Video size (kB). Min=232.73 Avg=245.77 +/- 8.79 Max=277.08
10:21:41.643: Video recv (mS). Min=16.04 Avg=20.01 +/- 1.92 Max=24.64
10:21:41.644: Video send (mS). Min=16.32 Avg=20.02 +/- 1.85 Max=23.62
10:21:41.644: Audio data rate (MBps). Avg=1.54
10:21:41.644: Audio size (kB). Min=3.85 Avg=3.85 +/- 0.00 Max=3.85
10:21:41.644: Audio recv (mS). Min=18.63 Avg=20.00 +/- 0.54 Max=21.44
10:21:41.645: Audio send (mS). Min=18.79 Avg=20.00 +/- 0.51 Max=21.18
10:21:41.646: Video receiver destroyed.
10:21:41.653: Audio receiver destroyed.

I can't see from these rates how the laptop can be NDI/HX. Both machines are playing video files with the same type of content but they aren't the same files.
mjgraves  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:39:51 AM(UTC)
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As I don't use a Tricaster, that analysis means very little to me.

The 99 mbps data rate for video suggests that the stream is full NDI. NDI|HX is compressed. Spark sends about 15 mbps. Some other encoders can send up to 40 mbps.

My Lenovo X1 Extreme running vMix 22.0.0.66 can send NDI to another system running studio monitor. Studio Monitor reports 1080p60 (correct) and the Windows Task manager shows 125-150 mbps over the network.

Setting the Tricaster aside, I would try to see what you see in Studio Monitor. Or OBS for that matter.

HX encoding requires dedicated hardware. I suspect a bug in the receiving side (Tricaster) since the data rate is too high for HX.

If Studio Monitor or OBS can see the stream (on any system on your LAN) then you will know vMix is working correctly.
FrankLeggett  
#6 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 5:18:26 AM(UTC)
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Hi,

That analysis was using NDI Analysis and it is of a Desktop VMix NDI stream and my laptop NDI Stream. The NDI Analysis of the streams was done on the Desktop but I get exactly the same results if I run NDI Analysis on the Laptop. I mentioned the Tricaster to say it isn't an issue with the network switch or the cabling.

The streams are both being generated by VMix.

I have tried OBS and I get exactly the same result from the Laptop.

I have also tried VLC with NDI plugin and again NDI Analysis states the Laptop is outputting NDI:HX.
mjgraves  
#7 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 6:26:23 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FrankLeggett Go to Quoted Post
Hi,
I have also tried VLC with NDI plugin and again NDI Analysis states the Laptop is outputting NDI:HX.


Since the PC cannot create NDI|HX (it doesn't have the hardware) that points to NDI Analysis being flaky, or at very least misleading.

Have you tried with an unmanaged switch? A port setting might be impacting what is happening.


FrankLeggett  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 8:13:25 AM(UTC)
FrankLeggett

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I'll try an unmanaged switch tomorrow.

I have done the following experiment:

Disconnected both computers from the Edgeswitch 8 and replaced it with a Netgear GS108 un-managed switch. I also reset the network adapters on both computers.

I have run NDI Analysis and the results are 2 Full NDI streams no NDI:HX

I then plugged the Edgeswitch back into the 2 computers and rest the network adapters on both computers again.

I re-run NDI Analysis but this time it only found 1 FUll NDI Stream which was from the Laptop but didn't see the NDI stream from the desktop yet NDI Monitor does.

I have had to turn off NDI on the computer that wasn't streaming NDI and then turn NDI back on to get it to work and be discovered by NDI Analysis.

At the route of this is main issue I have with NDI and that it isn't just plug and play. Sometimes you have to reboot network cards. Sometimes you have to reboot VMix. None of which are viable options for a client during a production as they lose transmission for upto a couple of minutes.
kkr  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 1, 2019 6:36:33 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

Laptop "Video data rate" indicate clean NDI.
Maybe there is a small difference between vMix 22.0.0.60 (desktop) and 22.0.0.66 (laptop)?
In this case we call it a feature...

BR
KKR
mjgraves  
#10 Posted : Friday, August 2, 2019 12:34:59 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FrankLeggett Go to Quoted Post
I'll try an unmanaged switch tomorrow.

I have had to turn off NDI on the computer that wasn't streaming NDI and then turn NDI back on to get it to work and be discovered by NDI Analysis.

At the route of this is main issue I have with NDI and that it isn't just plug and play. Sometimes you have to reboot network cards. Sometimes you have to reboot VMix. None of which are viable options for a client during a production as they lose transmission for upto a couple of minutes.


That's good progress.

Earlier in my career switchers (GVG, BTS, SONY, Ross, etc) were big hulking devices that ran embedded operating systems that cost $$$ and were intended for 24/7 operation. Now you're on windows. It's a different world.

Where in the past you had to worry about drivers for capture cards, etc...now you have other issues. It's laughable but true, in many cases rebooting a Windows box cleans up a lot of mess.

NDI, or any network based protocol, is going to demand that you know more about networking. Moving from an unmanaged network to a managed network is not trivial.

You have proven out that, true to Newtek's word that NDI Analysis is in beta, it can't be trusted.
FrankLeggett  
#11 Posted : Friday, August 2, 2019 2:23:43 AM(UTC)
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Whilst I wouldn't disagree that a good knowledge of networking is needed to configure a managed switch, NDI is advertised as a plug and play product. As to my issue I am more inclined to believe that the NDI:HX reading is a NDI Analaysis issue as it doesn't appear for other computers I have connected to the network. What I am trying to do is to get to a point where if I do a production I get a smooth transmission output. Unfortunately since I have used NDI in my production workflow I have been unable to achieve that.
mjgraves  
#12 Posted : Friday, August 2, 2019 2:28:12 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: FrankLeggett Go to Quoted Post
Whilst I wouldn't disagree that a good knowledge of networking is needed to configure a managed switch, NDI is advertised as a plug and play product.


It's a bold claim, but for many people that has been the case. I've had zeros real issues thus far. I have invested a lot of time in experimentation.

My worry is more about Newtek. There's plainly a significant bug in NDI Analysis. There may be some shared code with other products. That suggests other issues may arise.



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