New Logitech BCC950, no RGB24 1280x720/30p

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New Logitech BCC950, no RGB24 1280x720/30p

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RoboST		#1 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 1:17:28 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Have a few BCC950 with the Input setup for 1280x720 30p (vMix Output size setup also for 1280x720 NTSC 30p), Video Format set to 'Default'. All computes using the Logitech drivers, Windows 10 updated. vMix reports Resolution 1280x720 YUY2 on the new/recent BCC950 and gives error if I try to set the Video Format to RGB24. There seems to be a minor strobe like effect on the video. The other / older BCC950's report Resolution 1280x720 RGB24 when Video Format set to 'Default'. I can also set Video Format to RGB24 on those. I'm not sure if this is a Windows 10 issue, firmware in camera or driver issue. Perhaps a legacy setting in Windows 10 on this new laptop - seems Win10 Updates are disabling some legacy stuff upon the last feature update. I will move the new BCC950 to another computer and also test. Anyone else with a recent BCC950 tried RGB24? .


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mjgraves		#2 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 3:58:16 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		I have a BCC950, but it's quite old. I got it just after it was released so that my co-host and I could interview the product manager. I've never tried RGB24. The normal uncompressed mode for such devices is YUY2. vMix defaults to using MJPEG. There are no Logitech drivers for the BCC950. It's a generic UVC device. Using uncompressed modes (YUY2 or RGB24) you can only achieve 1280x720p30. This is the result of the USB 2.0 bandwidth limit. Using MJPEG you can achieve 1920x1080p30. Why would you want to use RGB24 vs YUY2?
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RoboST		#3 Posted : Wednesday, June 6, 2018 5:25:37 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		mjgraves wrote: I have a BCC950, but it's quite old. I got it just after it was released so that my co-host and I could interview the product manager. I've never tried RGB24. The normal uncompressed mode for such devices is YUY2. vMix defaults to using MJPEG. There are no Logitech drivers for the BCC950. It's a generic UVC device. Using uncompressed modes (YUY2 or RGB24) you can only achieve 1280x720p30. This is the result of the USB 2.0 bandwidth limit. Using MJPEG you can achieve 1920x1080p30. Why would you want to use RGB24 vs YUY2? Not a Logitech driver, but I meant their Camera Settings application downloaded and installed on each computer. We use the pan/tilt and zoom with their software to do that remotely. If I remember correctly, those controls didn't work unless their software is installed. On the older setups, when I select default for Video Format in vMix, it is stating Resolution 1280x720 RGB24. New new laptop with new BCC950 reports Resolution 1280x720 YUY2 when default is selected. I can't even manually select RGB24 for 1280x720 without vMix giving an error on that new laptop. Trying figure out what is different on the other systems vs this new laptop. We also use NDI so my understanding is MJPEG is out. Just need 720p30 for our streaming needs and the zoom is cut even more if 1080p is used. .


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mjgraves		#4 Posted : Thursday, June 7, 2018 10:02:45 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		Are the older setups Win7 or 8 and the new one Win10? There was a major shift in the way Windows itself handles USB attached cameras last summer. It broke a lot of functionality for a time. https://www.mgraves.org/...sb-camera-functionality/ That might explain the difference you're seeing. I don't ever recall a Logitech camera supporting RGB24. I'll dig out my BCC950 and see what it does for me, but I expect YUY2, MJPEG and H264 are the only options.
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RoboST		#5 Posted : Thursday, June 7, 2018 10:12:22 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		mjgraves wrote: Are the older setups Win7 or 8 and the new one Win10? Yes, I understand those changes after that one Feature Update that changed things for webcams, went through that myself.. All computers running Win 10 current feature updates/updates. All have Video Format set to default and the older setups all report Resolution 1280x720 RGB24 when you click the Gear Icon on the Input. I believe if I tried to select a compressed format, vMix would error out and list supported resolutions on those setups, RGB24 at different rez's listed. This new laptop, new BCC950 is not behaving like the others. .


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mjgraves		#6 Posted : Friday, June 8, 2018 7:06:29 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		Here's what vmix reports as possible using my BCC950: AddNewInput.The following are supported: 640x480 NTSC 30p YUY2 640x480 NTSC 30p YUY2 160x90 NTSC 30p YUY2 160x90 NTSC 30p YUY2 160x120 NTSC 30p YUY2 160x120 NTSC 30p YUY2 176x144 NTSC 30p YUY2 176x144 NTSC 30p YUY2 320x180 NTSC 30p YUY2 320x180 NTSC 30p YUY2 320x240 NTSC 30p YUY2 320x240 NTSC 30p YUY2 352x288 NTSC 30p YUY2 352x288 NTSC 30p YUY2 432x240 NTSC 30p YUY2 432x240 NTSC 30p YUY2 640x360 NTSC 30p YUY2 640x360 NTSC 30p YUY2 800x448 NTSC 30p YUY2 800x448 NTSC 30p YUY2 800x600 FILM 24p YUY2 800x600 FILM 24p YUY2 864x480 FILM 24p YUY2 864x480 FILM 24p YUY2 960x720 Unknown (666666) YUY2 960x720 Unknown (666666) YUY2 1024x576 Unknown (666666) YUY2 1024x576 Unknown (666666) YUY2 1280x720 Unknown (1000000) YUY2 1280x720 Unknown (1000000) YUY2 1600x896 Unknown (1333333) YUY2 1600x896 Unknown (1333333) YUY2 1920x1080 Unknown (2000000) YUY2 1920x1080 Unknown (2000000) YUY2 2304x1296 Unknown (4999998) YUY2 2304x1296 Unknown (4999998) YUY2 2304x1536 Unknown (4999998) YUY2 2304x1536 Unknown (4999998) YUY2 640x480 NTSC 30p H264 640x480 NTSC 30p H264 160x90 NTSC 30p H264 160x90 NTSC 30p H264 160x120 NTSC 30p H264 160x120 NTSC 30p H264 176x144 NTSC 30p H264 176x144 NTSC 30p H264 320x180 NTSC 30p H264 320x180 NTSC 30p H264 320x240 NTSC 30p H264 320x240 NTSC 30p H264 352x288 NTSC 30p H264 352x288 NTSC 30p H264 432x240 NTSC 30p H264 432x240 NTSC 30p H264 640x360 NTSC 30p H264 640x360 NTSC 30p H264 800x448 NTSC 30p H264 800x448 NTSC 30p H264 800x600 NTSC 30p H264 800x600 NTSC 30p H264 864x480 NTSC 30p H264 864x480 NTSC 30p H264 960x720 NTSC 30p H264 960x720 NTSC 30p H264 1024x576 NTSC 30p H264 1024x576 NTSC 30p H264 1280x720 NTSC 30p H264 1280x720 NTSC 30p H264 1600x896 NTSC 30p H264 1600x896 NTSC 30p H264 1920x1080 NTSC 30p H264 1920x1080 NTSC 30p H264 640x480 NTSC 30p MJPG 640x480 NTSC 30p MJPG 160x90 NTSC 30p MJPG 160x90 NTSC 30p MJPG 160x120 NTSC 30p MJPG 160x120 NTSC 30p MJPG 176x144 NTSC 30p MJPG 176x144 NTSC 30p MJPG 320x180 NTSC 30p MJPG 320x180 NTSC 30p MJPG 320x240 NTSC 30p MJPG 320x240 NTSC 30p MJPG 352x288 NTSC 30p MJPG 352x288 NTSC 30p MJPG 432x240 NTSC 30p MJPG 432x240 NTSC 30p MJPG 640x360 NTSC 30p MJPG 640x360 NTSC 30p MJPG 800x448 NTSC 30p MJPG 800x448 NTSC 30p MJPG 800x600 NTSC 30p MJPG 800x600 NTSC 30p MJPG 864x480 NTSC 30p MJPG 864x480 NTSC 30p MJPG 960x720 NTSC 30p MJPG 960x720 NTSC 30p MJPG 1024x576 NTSC 30p MJPG 1024x576 NTSC 30p MJPG 1280x720 NTSC 30p MJPG 1280x720 NTSC 30p MJPG 1600x896 NTSC 30p MJPG 1600x896 NTSC 30p MJPG 1920x1080 NTSC 30p MJPG 1920x1080 NTSC 30p MJPG No reference at all to RGB 24. Even at 720p resolution MJPEG works best. Least latency.
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RoboST		#7 Posted : Friday, June 8, 2018 7:34:16 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		mjgraves wrote: Even at 720p resolution MJPEG works best. Least latency. Will NDI be functional for that input if using MJPEG? I thought I read somewhere NDI requires uncompressed. I'll take another look at the supported Resolutions, I normally try to use one in vMix that I know is not supported so vMix produces an error with the supported resolutions. How did you get that list of resolutions? .


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mjgraves		#8 Posted : Friday, June 8, 2018 9:49:00 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		When you set vMix do explicitly configure a camera in a manner that it cannot, it generates an error message that lists all the valid configurations for that source. That's where I got that list. On my system any webcam can be offered via NDI. Even one configured for MJPEG or H264 over the USB link. Incidentally, the Brio supports the following: YUY2, MJPEG, NV12 All resolutions over 1080p require MJPEG. 2560x1440 NTSC 30p MJPG 3840x2160 NTSC 30p MJPG 4096x2160 NTSC 30p MJPG vMix does not offer 60p frame rates when connecting to Brio, but it does support 720p60 when using MJPEG.
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RoboST		#9 Posted : Saturday, June 9, 2018 11:11:43 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		I brought the new BCC950 camera head to another computer (Win10) that has been used many times in the past with an older BCC950 - just used speakerphone base with new camera head (which doesn't matter for the camera).. Loaded the camera config, had to reconfigure the Input by selecting the Gear Icon on that Input and setup the Input keeping Video Format to Default. Camera on that input enabled, old color settings used. I clicked the gear icon on that BCC950 Input again and saw: Resolution 1280x720 RGB24 That shows RGB24. I wonder if that is correct or vMix is reporting incorrectly? So that is as before, there is something going on with the new laptop / Win10 config. Can you click the gear icon on your BCC950 Input and post what the Resolution is reporting? .


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mjgraves		#10 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 9:30:35 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		Resolution 1280x720p at NTSC 30. I left the video format at "Default." As you can see the format is YUY2. In my experience this has always been the default format for Logitech webcams when the resolution is 1280x720 or less. When the resolution is beyond 1280x720 vMix defaults to MJPEG as the format. I've literally never seen a webcam that was capable of RGB24. I suspect that it requires more bandwidth than YUY2 because of differences in sampling scheme. That might explain the strobing as the frame rate might be suffering. Not sure why it's being offered on your older systems. Just for grins I installed the latest Logitech Camera Settings app. Unlike past version, the April 2018 release was able to handle both the Brio and BCC connected to my computer. I had thought that perhaps the Logitech Camera Settings app proxied the media, putting it into RGB24. It does not. When the settings app launches before vMix it grabs the video stream from the camera. vMix cannot see the camera. If you launch vMix fist, it can see the cameras. The Logitech app cannot see the video, but still allows PTZ control. IMHO, it's best to use MJPEG for all applications where webcams are involved. MJPEG presents the least load on the system. Unlike H264, it does not add any latency. While it is a lossy codec, in my experience the visual loss involved is not significant. The operational advantages are huge.
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RoboST		#11 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 11:51:42 AM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Can you go to Settings \| Performance \| Show Advanced Settings And see if Automatically convert 16-235 to 0-255 for YUV inputs is Active Please? On the new Laptop and BCC950 it is, it's greyed out and Not Active on the other older computers and BCC950's I'll post a screen cap like yours above for the older setups. .


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RoboST		#12 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 12:04:52 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		On one of the older setups, I simply created a new Input for the BCC950. I can leave Video Format on Default or set to RGB24 All the older Windows computers were originally Windows 7 updated to Windows 10 and updates applied when available (one may have been originally with Win8 but I remember it was updated immediately to Win10). The new laptop came with Windows 10. RoboST attached the following image(s): vMix_BCC950_01.jpg (108kb) downloaded 1 time(s). vMix_BCC950_02.jpg (87kb) downloaded 1 time(s). You cannot view/download attachments. Try to login or register.


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RoboST		#13 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 12:13:02 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		mjgraves wrote: I've literally never seen a webcam that was capable of RGB24. I suspect that it requires more bandwidth than YUY2 because of differences in sampling scheme. That might explain the strobing as the frame rate might be suffering. Not sure why it's being offered on your older systems. The strobing is on the new Laptop/new BCC950 with vMix reporting YUY2 and not RGB24. Again, vMix Video Format set to default (though the olders systems can also be set to RGB24). I'm not even sure why I can't match/get RGB24 on this new laptop where I can on all the older computers with Windows 10 now. mjgraves wrote: Just for grins I installed the latest Logitech Camera Settings app. Unlike past version, the April 2018 release was able to handle both the Brio and BCC connected to my computer. And the new software has the ptz controls on screen so I can control the camera remotely. I am running the new software on the new laptop but not on the other systems yet. I have to change the color settings upon reboot, logitech settings are not saving in the new version, they are on the previous version. Several posts on the logitech forums. Also, the new software can handle multiple cameras which I like, a couple systems have two cams. mjgraves wrote: IMHO, it's best to use MJPEG for all applications where webcams are involved. MJPEG presents the least load on the system. Unlike H264, it does not add any latency. While it is a lossy codec, in my experience the visual loss involved is not significant. The operational advantages are huge. Don't think NDI is supported with MJPEG, I'll try though. Read this: From: https://forums.vmix.com/...aspx?g=posts&m=23642 admin wrote: For the webcams that aren't working, add them to vMix and check the format reported in the Resolution box in Input Settings. NDI needs uncompressed video, so UYVY, YUY2, NV12 and RGB should all work, but MJPG or H264 will not. Check out Mari's post in that forum thread linked above, he seemed to have the same experience on his c920, RGB24 for default, YUY2 errors in vMix Mari wrote: Selected default, then VMix uses RGB24 for my C920... If I select another mode like YUY2 then Vmix tells me this is not supported! .


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RoboST		#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 12:26:30 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		RoboST wrote: Don't think NDI is supported with MJPEG, I'll try though. Read this: admin wrote: For the webcams that aren't working, add them to vMix and check the format reported in the Resolution box in Input Settings. NDI needs uncompressed video, so UYVY, YUY2, NV12 and RGB should all work, but MJPG or H264 will not. Perhaps something changed since that post or I am thinking this wrong. Loaded the preset on one older setup, changed the BCC950 to MJPG and NDI still works. CPU vMix is higher vs when the BCC950 is on RGB24 I'd like to be consistent on these systems, don't understand why I can't get RGB24 on the new laptop. .


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RoboST		#15 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 12:33:44 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		Maybe the previous Logitech software is changing the available formats, here is what I get on a older system (I'll later post the available formats on the new laptop which is running the latest Logitech software). Never really noticed before or tried it (no need for it), but 1920x1080 NTSC 30p RGB is listed to. 640x360 NTSC 30p RGB 800x448 NTSC 30p RGB 800x600 NTSC 30p RGB 864x480 NTSC 30p RGB 960x720 NTSC 30p RGB 1024x576 NTSC 30p RGB 1280x720 NTSC 30p RGB 1600x896 NTSC 30p RGB 1920x1080 NTSC 30p RGB 2304x1296 Unknown (4999998) RGB 2304x1536 Unknown (4999998) RGB 640x480 NTSC 30p I420 160x90 NTSC 30p I420 160x120 NTSC 30p I420 176x144 NTSC 30p I420 320x180 NTSC 30p I420 320x240 NTSC 30p I420 352x288 NTSC 30p I420 432x240 NTSC 30p I420 640x360 NTSC 30p I420 800x448 NTSC 30p I420 800x600 NTSC 30p I420 864x480 NTSC 30p I420 960x720 NTSC 30p I420 1024x576 NTSC 30p I420 1280x720 NTSC 30p I420 1600x896 NTSC 30p I420 1920x1080 NTSC 30p I420 2304x1296 Unknown (4999998) I420 2304x1536 Unknown (4999998) I420 640x480 NTSC 30p MJPG 160x90 NTSC 30p MJPG 160x120 NTSC 30p MJPG 176x144 NTSC 30p MJPG 320x180 NTSC 30p MJPG 320x240 NTSC 30p MJPG 352x288 NTSC 30p MJPG 432x240 NTSC 30p MJPG 640x360 NTSC 30p MJPG 800x448 NTSC 30p MJPG 800x600 NTSC 30p MJPG 864x480 NTSC 30p MJPG 960x720 NTSC 30p MJPG 1024x576 NTSC 30p MJPG 1280x720 NTSC 30p MJPG 1600x896 NTSC 30p MJPG 1920x1080 NTSC 30p MJPG Unspecified error .


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mjgraves		#16 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 5:39:47 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		RoboST wrote: Loaded the preset on one older setup, changed the BCC950 to MJPG and NDI still works. I tried this earlier and told you that it works. RoboST wrote: CPU vMix is higher vs when the BCC950 is on RGB24. Yes, vMix's internal processing is likely all YUV, which makes YUY2 more of a native format. easier to deal with. RoboST wrote: I'd like to be consistent on these systems, don't understand why I can't get RGB24 on the new laptop. I think that RGB is anomalous and should be avoided I think you'd be better off using MJPEG everywhere. On my systems there's less latency when I use MJPEG, and less contention for bus bandwidth.
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mjgraves		#17 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 5:45:57 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		RoboST wrote: 1920x1080 NTSC 30p RGB 2304x1296 Unknown (4999998) RGB 2304x1536 Unknown (4999998) RGB These resolution & sampling combinations are nonsensical. The BCC950 does not support 2304x1296 or 2304x1536. You simply can't push >= 1080p 24 bit RGB across a USB 2 connection. It won't fit. The webcam driver is old and/or confused. The only compelling reason to use RGB24 is for higher quality green screen. Using full RGB and 4:4:4 sampling you have more chroma detail which leads to better composites. That's generally only a consideration in higher-end post production. It beyond any kind of rational use of a webcam.
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mjgraves		#18 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:02:38 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC) Posts: 1,150 Location: Houston TX Thanks: 319 times Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)		RoboST wrote: I'd like to be consistent on these systems, don't understand why I can't get RGB24 on the new laptop. The very old 2016 thread you cite described the issue. The default colorspace offered for webcams varies with resolution. Back in 2016 vMix had different defaults. In 2017 (I think) they switched to using MJPEG as the default for HD/FHD resolutions. Back in 2016, when NDI was brand new, vMix didn't offer compressed streams as NDI sources. Now it does.
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RoboST		#19 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 6:27:19 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		mjgraves wrote: The webcam driver is old and/or confused. My thinking was along this line, perhaps since these Win10 systems upgraded from Win7 In Device Manager, all are reporting: Microsoft 4/11/2018 10.0.17134.1 All the the newest laptop are running the Logitech software from 2016, the new laptop running the Logitech software from 2018. .


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RoboST		#20 Posted : Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:18:09 PM(UTC)
Rank: Advanced Member Groups: Registered Joined: 9/2/2014(UTC) Posts: 91 Location: Washington Thanks: 18 times Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)		I'm going to test using MJPG On the older systems, I can't even set the Video Format to YUY2, vMix Errors out. I can on the new laptop but get that strobe effect. It's baffling to me why some systems allow YUY2 but not RGB24 and some allow RGB24 but not YUY2. .


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