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Videoguy16x9  
#1 Posted : Sunday, August 13, 2017 9:14:38 PM(UTC)
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Hello! This is my first post here, and I am hoping you can help with some advice.

I work for a university and we produce both sporting and academic performances and events on campus. In the past, my main switcher has been a TriCaster 460.

We recently decided to centralize our control room using NDI so that our soccer, football, hockey, basketball, wrestling and volleyball can all be processed in one location with a minimum of equipment to haul around. Our goal is an ESPN level experience for our fans.

The TriCaster Advanced Edition gets our TXD460 ready for NDI, but my vision is to have two complete production teams in one room capable of producing simultaneous events. My first instinct is to get a TriCaster TC1 (we will be using NewTek Sparks to transmit camera signals), but at $25,000 with control surface... that is a lot of my budget.

I tested and eliminated several other software and hardware solutions and only vMix is still standing for consideration. I figure with all the recommended computer components, xKeys controllers and the vMix Pro software, I can deploy for about $7,000.

I have sent a few emails in to vMix, but have had no replies, so I am reaching out to you in the vMix community.

I am very interested in vMix, and I think I have even found a way to make it behave like a traditional switcher layout by saving a preset with empty inputs all labelled for future use. In other words, I may only be running four cameras today, but input 10 is still "camera 10" on my xKeys controller. That means input 13 will be my first media player, etc.

When running multiple cameras, I find I need to keep my eyes glued to the multi-viewer and my hands have to instinctively know where to go, like a typist or pianist. having the "A" key "slip around" just isn't an option for me and almost counted vMix out for me until I "tricked" the interface.

*******
In any event, here is what I need to know:

How good a quality are the main recordings? We broadcast live to television and also need a good quality archive.

How reliable is the system? I simply cannot afford to be down during a live televised show.

My initial tests on a less than perfect spec machine have been good but do show a lot of dropped frames, even from local media. Will a perfect spec machine fix this? Are there formats that are better for playback in vMix?

Is the xKeys integration easy and rock solid? For me, switching without a surface is like driving while texting, on a real slow journey maybe you don't crash, but at the speed of sports, you will crash if you don't keep your eyes on the multi-viewer.

Although there are some paradigm differences, so far it seems like vMix can do almost anything the TriCaster can do... am I missing something? If vMix is this good, why is TriCaster so much more?

How is the quality of the streaming output? We use an RMTP based service (Stretch) for all our shows.

Is it possible to break out the instant replay controls to a separate controller?

Finally, I saw a few of the showcase videos and while graphics and production quality was good, I did not see anything quite at the level I am looking for - four plus cameras, replays with stingers, advanced graphics (particularly in motion)and video / commercial insertion. Can anyone point to an "ESPN level" production produced by vMix software?

Thank you in advance for your advice, my timeline to make a decision is very short.

Ironically, we reached out to vMix and BirdDog studios (for their NDI adapters) and neither has responded. The irony is this: every time I have a major problem with our TriCaster, I plan on a two to four day down time as I go through slow (but good) technical support and draconian security measures on their software. It was a recent four day frustration session that really opened up my thoughts to vMix and BirdDog, but you know the old adage, if you can't get them to respond when they are trying to sell you something, how can you expect good support after you buy?

How have your support needs been met by the vMix crew?

Thanks again for your time and advice.

H. R. Petersen,
Strategic Media Development Coordinator,
Minnesota State University, Mankato
PrepSpin  
#2 Posted : Sunday, August 13, 2017 10:57:19 PM(UTC)
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Hey videoguy16x9 - I produce content for major networks using vMix. Last year we did 50 D1 college basketball games and several other college games. Building your own vMix system will pay off in the long run instead of buying something that will become obsolete. I have a lot of expensive paper weights laying around. vMix has been our game changer. Did I mention that I also produce MiLB using vMix? It's a winner!
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC), Condreal on 6/1/2020(UTC)
Videoguy16x9  
#3 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 1:28:14 AM(UTC)
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Thank you so much PrepSpin, I've read some of the case studies on you and was hoping you might reply. I am feeling pretty awesome about the prospect of this software.

Any recommendations on computer components? Any problems with NDI camera sources?
element  
#4 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:19:53 AM(UTC)
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Is it possible to break out the instant replay controls to a separate controller?

Yes.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC)
Zetor1980  
#5 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 8:03:13 AM(UTC)
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Buy both :)
I have vMix, Livestream Studio and Tricaster. Sometimes I use OBS.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC)
JimJacobs  
#6 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 11:49:39 AM(UTC)
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As a former tricastor power user (had 4 of them), I can tell you for certain, especially when it comes to sports that vmix is without question the way to go. That's not to say that the tricaster is not a great product. It is however in my opinion excessively overpriced. We used Vmix exclusively to produce over 118 sporting events last year without a single issue or crash. It just works. Add in a second system for standalone Vmix instant replay and you've got a package that will give you whatever you need to look great. With NDI now integrated within vmix you can add in all types of ingestion equipment as well as third-party graphic solutions to give you a network quality look for any application. There are several places that can build you a custom PCs designed to handle vmix...or you can build them yourselves. While I don't use the X keys controller myself in favor of other midi devices that better suit my needs they appear to be solid control surfaces that I wouldn't hesi that I wouldn't hesitate to recommend hesitate to recommend.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC)
RobLambert  
#7 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 12:38:30 PM(UTC)
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Mr. Petersen

I have spent several months on the identical issue. The TC-1 is wonderful; but, twice as much buck for the same bang. That was only part of the equation as i never want money to hurt the quality.

The other issue is i like the freedom to see what i can do and dont like limitations imposed from others.

The final issue is i cant ever see how i can get a broken tricaster fixed when i live in the middle of nowhere and newtek just plain doesnt support that type of customer service without a special expensive contract. With vmix it is my responsibility to get the right stuff to back up the software and let it do its job.

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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC)
Videoguy16x9  
#8 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 2:43:20 PM(UTC)
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Thank you all so very much for your posts on this. I used to work for ABC in news and sports when there used to be ABC Sports before everything merged with ESPN. I "grew up" doing college football under Wright, Fleishig and Donshenko, good times indeed. In those days, an inexpensive upstart called the Video Toaster rocked the world. It took us two semi-truck trailers and around $2,000,000 in gear to produce an ABC college football game, and a little company called NewTek claimed they could do everything in a single Commodore computer for around $10,000. Now it seems that vMix is doing to NewTek what Walmart did to K-Mart - they may have been the less expensive upstart in their day, but now someone new is doing the same thing to them.

JimJacobs, RonLambert, you are absolutely right, The TriCaster is definitely a bit overpriced for the market, but it is the controllers that kill me - $12,000 for a control surface for the TC1? I plan on using an xKeys with T-Bar and a pair of X128's as well as a Jog Shuttle pad for replay, all under $2,500 and with a whole lot more than the NewTek surfaces.

Zetor1980, I agree, best of both worlds, I will still have my TXD460 Advanced Edition, but I think it is time to diversify.

RonLambert, what you said about repair rings so true. We recently had to revert our TriCaster back to 455 factory default to eliminate constant performance warnings because someone installed the Chrome browser. Long story short, it was four days of draconian software security codes, not being able to register the 455 because that serial number became invalid when we upgraded to the 460, then not being able to complete the 460 registration because it already was and finally not being able to upgrade to Advanced Edition because our brand new serial number was invalid and had to be entered in a different place... we got through it, but who can spend four days down during the season hanging on tech support?

What really got me thinking about vMix was that I wanted to demo the software for my supervisor - but it was already 12:15 and our meeting was at 1:00 p.m. Not only did I get the software installed, but I was able to load several sources including some NDI feeds from VLC on neighboring machines and give her a complete demo. That really made me reconsider my path.

Thank you to all of you, now I just need to figure out the best possible machine to pull in as many NDI signals as possible.

I am looking at Xeon workstations from Dell (or are i7 Kaby Lake better?) and one or two Nvidia GeForce 1080 6GB video cards, and I am still wading through which capture card is the best.

If any of you would care to share what your system is built around, and if you are using NDI, what you are using for NDI encoding of your cameras, I would be incredibly grateful.

Thanks again to all of you, I did get an email from Martin Sinclair regarding some of my questions, and it looks like the community is active and responsive - all good signs for a healthy future for vMix.
RobLambert  
#9 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 3:57:24 PM(UTC)
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Re hardware, look at the few day old vmix fun time live show for august dealing with the i9-7900x build the designers of the software are experimenting with.....about 12 minutes into the show.

Please let me know what you end up building as that is the next step for me also.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC)
Videoguy16x9  
#10 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 4:13:04 PM(UTC)
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Will do RonLambert, I was just putting together an i9 based system on paper, this is perfect timing! I will be happy to let you know what we do - we had a first event coming up September 2nd for our soccer team, but football had a cancellation and reschedule for Wednesday, August 23rd, so that is our goal to be up and running....
Peter B  
#11 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 6:14:24 PM(UTC)
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With the money you save you could consider a heavy duty graphics system on a separate
machine that is available to both control rooms. I believe this now supports NDI.
http://www.fullcompass.c...eo-Ltd-XPression-Live-CG

vMix is incredibly stable, I've had no crashes or ever felt the need to restart it.
Very impressive considering what it's doing.

Having a Tricaster and vMix would be the best of both worlds, especially when linked
by NDI / SDI.

In a training environment having the students learn both systems would be ideal.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC)
Videoguy16x9  
#12 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 6:41:03 PM(UTC)
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Thank you Peter B, that does look interesting. For this year (budgets and all), I am considering either getting NewBlue's Titler Broadcast Edition ($1,500), or just using what I already have in After Effects and Premiere Pro to do titles. With the TriCaster Advanced, I was able to pull over Adobe playouts with their alpha channels, I will be experimenting with vMix today to verify that it can do the same thing.

The build I am looking at is a 10 core i9 with 32GB RAM, and a GeForce 1080Ti graphics card with a 1000 watt power supply. I will be using two 4k monitors for the vMix program and multi-view screens. The whole thing will be controlled with xKeys controllers, an XK124 T-Bar side by side with a pair of XK128's and a 12 key jog shuttle for the replay operator. The TC1 with a control surface is $24,999, my full setup, computer, software (not including titling software), and control surfaces will run $7,289. I could literally deploy three monster vMix systems for the cost of the TC1 alone. I was skeptical, but emailing with Martin Sinclair and chatting with you folks has me convinced, I am going to deploy two identical vMix units and use the savings in other areas we desperately need. Now if one of the video-to-NDI-translator vendors can get past the vaporware stage and actually start delivering product, this could be an amazing year for our broadcasts!
Peter B  
#13 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 7:38:26 PM(UTC)
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Yes, vMix supports Premier playouts with alpha via NDI.

This is fun, realtime playout and will texture map live sdi and direct x sources (vMix
external 2), into a 3D model -
https://www.outerspace-software.com/blufftitler

The high end Tricasters do have virtual set tracking tools that vMix doesn't
but for the money you would have to consider the new Ross alternatives.

Looks like a great system.

Speegs  
#14 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 8:25:55 PM(UTC)
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If your budget could sustain NewTek Equipment. It should be able to sustain some nice high end Vmix based Equipment with a hot spare capability. Not saying you will need it, but all computer hardware can/does fail when you need it most. So I'd be heading to Vmix and factoring in some redundancy.

I would also use a hardware video encoder (not because you have to, but just because they are cheap to your budget) to do the stream part (Teradek vidu/cerevo live x etc..) Take the streaming away from the computer to an appliance, let it do the Video Mixing (use the computer if the appliance fails). Pop a few high quality video recording monitors into your setup too, Atomos Ninja, Black Magic Video Assist or others. Gets you some nice recordings that don't rely on the computer, not to mention some portable screens to check signals.

So two powerful Vmix systems running as pair with NDI. So you can have replay on one, Mixing on the other. If something went bad, you would be able to get one of them to do double duty. Oh and add your old Tricaster as well, because it's NDI you can :)

Basically design your setup into easy to manage parts that are doing it "easy" (with options/plans for failure), without NDI this would be hard (because of cable routing and all that).

Consider 10GBit Ethernet in your studio and 1Gbit back to the fields. (I would imagine a University would have a 10GE backbone anyway).

Back in my ISP and BBS days, I quickly learnt like most running your mail server, web servers, billing database, dialup servers etc.. all on one machine is not good for uptime and wouldn't scale. So take the scaleable way of doing things. Separate tasks, optimize machines for each task, integrate hardware appliances where it makes sense. I'm sure you have access to many that know how to scale things up, divide and concur at university who are smarter than me :)

Just some thoughts, consider more than one Vmix computer (maybe 3), now you can network them so easily. Relay and Vision Mixing seem good to separate. Possibly ISORecording another thing to separate (if required). Streaming is easy to separate with a black box.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/14/2017(UTC), RobLambert on 8/14/2017(UTC)
Videoguy16x9  
#15 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 8:53:40 PM(UTC)
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Peter B, I have actually used Bluff Titler to create sports opens in the past (pre-rendered for easy play out). Bang for the buck, it is pretty awesome for a small operation like ours.

Speegs - thank you for the good advice. I will work with the budget and see if I can fit some of those in - although I do have a trio of Atomos Ninja recorders that work really well. We have a very solid fiber backbone, so you are right, 10GE is what I want to get upgraded to - may have to happen mid season though.
ask  
#16 Posted : Monday, August 14, 2017 10:25:36 PM(UTC)
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Videoguy16x9 wrote:
Now if one of the video-to-NDI-translator vendors can get past the vaporware stage and actually start delivering product, this could be an amazing year for our broadcasts!


The Birddog Studio NDI unit is available for purchase and is really excellent as a piece of kit. Both Speegs and I have one and have been torture testing them and they hold up extremely well. PM DanMiall (https://forums.vmix.com/default.aspx?g=profile&u=5555) on this forum and he will put you in touch with a US dealer that you can liase with.
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Videoguy16x9 on 8/15/2017(UTC)
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