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Speegs  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 6, 2017 2:31:45 AM(UTC)
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Hello,

Just an update I received an email from Birddog today to update my postal address it will be shipping to those who pre-ordered soon.

Within the next 3 weeks specifically. I'll let you know if mine turns up and actually works :)

Been waiting for so long.

Regards,

Speegs
Mathijs  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, June 6, 2017 6:43:56 AM(UTC)
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Ok, I'll take it temporarily out of my vaporware trashbin. ;)
ovinas  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, June 6, 2017 10:37:19 AM(UTC)
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I'll leave it deep inside...
kane  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, June 6, 2017 2:19:47 PM(UTC)
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I got to see a fully working unit recently. I have to say I'm impressed with what saw. I know it has taken much longer than they thought to come to market, but from what I can see they did it right.

I would like to have one to test out fully myself, so I'll hold all recommendations until then, but I think this product will be worth the wait.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
lael  
#5 Posted : Monday, June 26, 2017 1:06:23 AM(UTC)
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Has anyone heard any news about these shipping or not?
kane  
#6 Posted : Monday, June 26, 2017 12:07:43 PM(UTC)
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From last I heard, they are not shipping yet.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
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lael on 6/26/2017(UTC)
lael  
#7 Posted : Monday, June 26, 2017 12:29:31 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Kane - Any idea how close they are? Are they RTM yet?
Speegs  
#8 Posted : Monday, June 26, 2017 7:09:02 PM(UTC)
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I'm still checking the post everyday, I'll certainly update this thread when I get the pre-order. I should be early in the pre-order program. I doubt I'm first, but certainly think I'd be in the first 10% of those who pre-ordered.
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lael on 6/26/2017(UTC)
Speegs  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, July 4, 2017 8:04:22 PM(UTC)
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Just providing and update. No signs of the new product yet.
ovinas  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, July 5, 2017 12:47:53 AM(UTC)
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Really? What a surprise...
Ever thought about why no company like Blackmagic has one in the pipeline? Or why cameras (Canon, JVC, Panasonic, Sony...) still have no NDI built in?
Speegs  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:24:25 AM(UTC)
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Email from the Birddog CEO, after asking if my package got lost:

Heading across to the USA tomorrow morning to oversee the first assemblies come off the line, so it should only be a matter of days from there.

Disclaimer: Don't blame me if the information is wrong, I'm just passing along what I received, so just another small delay it seems.

A product really made in the USA ain't seen that for a while.
Speegs  
#12 Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:35:11 PM(UTC)
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No Birddog looking packages yet, it's a race will the Newtek NDI Spark or Birddog arrive first?
kane  
#13 Posted : Thursday, July 13, 2017 8:57:47 PM(UTC)
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I'm pretty confident it will be Spark.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
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Speegs on 7/13/2017(UTC)
Ittaidv  
#14 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 9:37:51 AM(UTC)
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I'm not involved deep enough in this to have a clear view on what's going on behind the scenes, but I was thinking this today:

I understand Newtek opened up it's technology towards partners. But I find it a bit sad to see that the announcement of NDI v3 was coupled with their own hardware solution, which already supports NDI v3 immediatly. The birddog guys probably invested a lot of money into their NDI v1 or 2 solution, but will now release a product that is already outdated, because they probably had no acces to the technology which Newtek didn't release yet. The spark team clearly had acces to NDi v3 during development. It makes developing hardware for NDI less attractive, because before you know it Newtek might release a new version of NDI and the hardware to go with it.

In this sense, the SMPTE approach makes more sense, because those guys have a longer development time and are more open to the public about what's in the pipeline, so everybody gets a fair chance to release the latest and greatest.

I could be totally wrong, because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes though :)
kane  
#15 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 10:32:50 AM(UTC)
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Ittaidv wrote:
I'm not involved deep enough in this to have a clear view on what's going on behind the scenes, but I was thinking this today:

I understand Newtek opened up it's technology towards partners. But I find it a bit sad to see that the announcement of NDI v3 was coupled with their own hardware solution, which already supports NDI v3 immediatly. The birddog guys probably invested a lot of money into their NDI v1 or 2 solution, but will now release a product that is already outdated, because they probably had no acces to the technology which Newtek didn't release yet. The spark team clearly had acces to NDi v3 during development. It makes developing hardware for NDI less attractive, because before you know it Newtek might release a new version of NDI and the hardware to go with it.

In this sense, the SMPTE approach makes more sense, because those guys have a longer development time and are more open to the public about what's in the pipeline, so everybody gets a fair chance to release the latest and greatest.

I could be totally wrong, because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes though :)


Yes with the SMPTE approach we will wait before they get the standard released and them more time after that before everyone gets their equipment working together. :)

I jest, but it isn't far off from the truth. I get the advantages of standards, but the real standard here is IP. Both SMTPE 2022/2110 and NDI can run on the same network because both are IP based.

I know that there are discussions between NewTek devs and BirdDog. BirdDog needed to get deep level NDI information since they are trying to build a FPGA version of the CODEC. NDI 3 is compatible with NDI 2 software and devices, so anything that BirdDog is working on will still work just as it would before. Beyond that we growing that world of NDI, giving them more opportunity to sell more devices. I'm sure that BirdDog (given time) can add any new NDI 3 features to their product, perhaps even as a paid upgrade feature giving them more revenue opportunity down the road.

Lastly not all NDI 3 features on the sending side, everyone gets to benefit from the performance improvements just by having NDI 3.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
livepad  
#16 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 10:48:09 AM(UTC)
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kane wrote:
Ittaidv wrote:
I'm not involved deep enough in this to have a clear view on what's going on behind the scenes, but I was thinking this today:

I understand Newtek opened up it's technology towards partners. But I find it a bit sad to see that the announcement of NDI v3 was coupled with their own hardware solution, which already supports NDI v3 immediatly. The birddog guys probably invested a lot of money into their NDI v1 or 2 solution, but will now release a product that is already outdated, because they probably had no acces to the technology which Newtek didn't release yet. The spark team clearly had acces to NDi v3 during development. It makes developing hardware for NDI less attractive, because before you know it Newtek might release a new version of NDI and the hardware to go with it.

In this sense, the SMPTE approach makes more sense, because those guys have a longer development time and are more open to the public about what's in the pipeline, so everybody gets a fair chance to release the latest and greatest.

I could be totally wrong, because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes though :)


Yes with the SMTPE approach we will wait before they get the standard released and them more time after that before everyone gets their equipment working together. :)

I jest, but it isn't far off from the truth. I get the advantages of standards, but the real standard here is IP. Both SMTPE 2022/2110 and NDI can run on the same network because both are IP based.

I know that there are discussions between NewTek devs and BirdDog. BirdDog needed to get deep level NDI information since they are trying to build a FPGA version of the CODEC. NDI 3 is compatible with NDI 2 software and devices, so anything that BirdDog is working on will still work just as it would before. Beyond that we growing that world of NDI, giving them more opportunity to sell more devices. I'm sure that BirdDog (given time) can add any new NDI 3 features to their product, perhaps even as a paid upgrade feature giving them more revenue opportunity down the road.

Lastly not all NDI 3 features on the sending side, everyone gets to benefit from the performance improvements just by having NDI 3.


As Kane has mentioned, very little of NDI 3.0 really affects BirdDog's plans. Whilst NDI 3.0 introduces the option of Multicast with FEC, the existing, proven TCP method is still an important part of NDI 3, and arguably - for single point to single point within a LAN (where BirdDog will be mostly used) I would argue that TCP is an appropriate choice. NDI HX is not relevant to BirdDog as a Sender, although it may create some fairly challenging additional work if they ever decide they want to convert NDI HX into HDMI with BirdDog, although support for incoming NDI Multicast with FEC will require a bit more development but probably not too bad.

Equally people should be aware that NewTek Connect Spark and BirdDog Studio are somewhat different products.
One uses reduced bandwidth encoding to support WIFI whilst the other is a full NDI bandwidth with wired ethernet, and a future option to convert the other way. Neither can do both things.

+1 for the 3rd Party NDI development partners. Ultimately its the broader ecosystem and adoption which can make NDI industry standard.



Ittaidv  
#17 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 12:37:25 PM(UTC)
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It would indeed be cool if NDI became a more open standard, or at least that future development would be announced with some dates and details.

This doesn't mean it should go towards a bureaucratic oldschool slow standards developments such as SMPTE, but the way in between would be nice. Fast development with a clear roadmap.

We were looking for an NDI converter with the specifics of the spark, and although we are very happy it's there, we put a lot of time and research ourselves into finding hardware and software solutions in order to achieve the same result.

In a way I'm happy we can stop the research, go to a shop and buy the thing. But I can imagine this product doesn't come from nowhere. If we would have known this was coming, it could have saved us some time :)
rkay  
#18 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 2:04:47 PM(UTC)
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kane wrote:
Ittaidv wrote:
I'm not involved deep enough in this to have a clear view on what's going on behind the scenes, but I was thinking this today:

I understand Newtek opened up it's technology towards partners. But I find it a bit sad to see that the announcement of NDI v3 was coupled with their own hardware solution, which already supports NDI v3 immediatly. The birddog guys probably invested a lot of money into their NDI v1 or 2 solution, but will now release a product that is already outdated, because they probably had no acces to the technology which Newtek didn't release yet. The spark team clearly had acces to NDi v3 during development. It makes developing hardware for NDI less attractive, because before you know it Newtek might release a new version of NDI and the hardware to go with it.

In this sense, the SMPTE approach makes more sense, because those guys have a longer development time and are more open to the public about what's in the pipeline, so everybody gets a fair chance to release the latest and greatest.

I could be totally wrong, because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes though :)


Yes with the SMPTE approach we will wait before they get the standard released and them more time after that before everyone gets their equipment working together. :)

I jest, but it isn't far off from the truth. I get the advantages of standards, but the real standard here is IP. Both SMTPE 2022/2110 and NDI can run on the same network because both are IP based.

I know that there are discussions between NewTek devs and BirdDog. BirdDog needed to get deep level NDI information since they are trying to build a FPGA version of the CODEC. NDI 3 is compatible with NDI 2 software and devices, so anything that BirdDog is working on will still work just as it would before. Beyond that we growing that world of NDI, giving them more opportunity to sell more devices. I'm sure that BirdDog (given time) can add any new NDI 3 features to their product, perhaps even as a paid upgrade feature giving them more revenue opportunity down the road.

Lastly not all NDI 3 features on the sending side, everyone gets to benefit from the performance improvements just by having NDI 3.

Kane Peterson
NewTek

I guess Ittaidv's point was to make NDI3.0 available to all developers to get a fair chance to share the pie.
I am pretty sure that Connect Spark is also using FPGA unless it is using Rasberry Pi.
NDI is open source but it would've been great if "deep level NDI information" is available to all public.
I don't think BirdDog or Pizazz can share NDI sender market due to the fact that
1. Connect Spark will be equipped with NDI3.0.
2. Connect Spark will be released before other products.
3. Connect Spark has unbeatable pricing.
livepad  
#19 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 4:51:48 PM(UTC)
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rkay wrote:
kane wrote:
Ittaidv wrote:
I'm not involved deep enough in this to have a clear view on what's going on behind the scenes, but I was thinking this today:

I understand Newtek opened up it's technology towards partners. But I find it a bit sad to see that the announcement of NDI v3 was coupled with their own hardware solution, which already supports NDI v3 immediatly. The birddog guys probably invested a lot of money into their NDI v1 or 2 solution, but will now release a product that is already outdated, because they probably had no acces to the technology which Newtek didn't release yet. The spark team clearly had acces to NDi v3 during development. It makes developing hardware for NDI less attractive, because before you know it Newtek might release a new version of NDI and the hardware to go with it.

In this sense, the SMPTE approach makes more sense, because those guys have a longer development time and are more open to the public about what's in the pipeline, so everybody gets a fair chance to release the latest and greatest.

I could be totally wrong, because I don't know what's going on behind the scenes though :)


Yes with the SMPTE approach we will wait before they get the standard released and them more time after that before everyone gets their equipment working together. :)

I jest, but it isn't far off from the truth. I get the advantages of standards, but the real standard here is IP. Both SMTPE 2022/2110 and NDI can run on the same network because both are IP based.

I know that there are discussions between NewTek devs and BirdDog. BirdDog needed to get deep level NDI information since they are trying to build a FPGA version of the CODEC. NDI 3 is compatible with NDI 2 software and devices, so anything that BirdDog is working on will still work just as it would before. Beyond that we growing that world of NDI, giving them more opportunity to sell more devices. I'm sure that BirdDog (given time) can add any new NDI 3 features to their product, perhaps even as a paid upgrade feature giving them more revenue opportunity down the road.

Lastly not all NDI 3 features on the sending side, everyone gets to benefit from the performance improvements just by having NDI 3.

Kane Peterson
NewTek

I guess Ittaidv's point was to make NDI3.0 available to all developers to get a fair chance to share the pie.
I am pretty sure that Connect Spark is also using FPGA unless it is using Rasberry Pi.
NDI is open source but it would've been great if "deep level NDI information" is available to all public.
I don't think BirdDog or Pizazz can share NDI sender market due to the fact that
1. Connect Spark will be equipped with NDI3.0.
2. Connect Spark will be released before other products.
3. Connect Spark has unbeatable pricing.



Hey rkay

For clarity, to the best of my knowledge Spark isn't using FPGA or Raspberry PI, and its not designed to deliver the ~ 100mBit bandwidth traditional NDI which BirdDog is designed for.

NDI HX is a different animal designed to extend NDI's reach and scope in places where the traditional 100mbit NDI codec can't easily fit (like PTZ Cameras), but it almost certainly wont replace the 100 mBit NDI as the core codec, and so there will continue to be a market and demand for the BirdDog and anything else using regular NDI (like NewTek's NC1). The 100 mbit NDI will remain the choice for people wanting minimum latency and maximum quality.

I am sure BirdDog will respond themselves, but Spark doesn't compete *directly* with BirdDog apples for apples - even tho it might seem like that.

I wish them luck - coding NDI for FPGA is *proper* old fashioned honest toil - and in this new electronics world of 'just bolt together some modules off the shelf from China' and the software world of 'copy and paste some code examples and a bit of open source' - it's becoming rarer to see that - and it deserves credit.











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DWAM on 7/14/2017(UTC)
DWAM  
#20 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 7:25:10 PM(UTC)
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Thank you Mark for this. Much clearer now.
I think it's good news that NDI core remains high specs. I was afraid NDI 3.0 would lower the quality.
If NDI HX is simply a proprietary (and very expensive) variant of RTSP/H.264, I really don't care as I certainly won't use this instead of SDI which remains the cheapest and best quality solution for inputting cameras.
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