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Dropped frames... Finding the cause: SOLVED
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I have had an issue with dropped frames in the past. It's not bad but it seems to always occur when there is an important shot and it creates a pop in my video capture. Until recently I chalked it up to my PC being underpowered, but now that I have built a fairly decent computer strictly around the requirements for vMix I'm not so sure... I did a live show on Friday night (I will upload some sample clips later tonight) and I was excited to see the performance of the new system. The dropped frames were still present and still not very often, after 3 hours of capture I ended up with 75 dropped frames. I noticed a few of the dropped frames occurred while my announcer was introducing the next fighter. This made me wonder if the dropped frames could be a result of my audio clipping or getting too overpowering. This is just a hypothesis I came up with while running my production but it seemed to have some consistency throughout the night. Has anyone had anything similar? I'm only running 3-5ms and 15% cpu. Later tonight I will upload some examples for everyone to take a look at. I'd really like to get rid of these pops and stutters. Thanks. Intel i7 6700K CPU Asrock Z170 Motherboard 32 Gigs DDR4 2133 Ram GTX 970 Gigabyte Graphics Card - 4 Gigs Ram Magewell 4 Port HDMI Capture Card 4K Intensity Pro - Used For Output Video Cpilcher attached the following image(s):  IMG_0671.JPG (1,263kb) downloaded 89 time(s). IMG_0701.JPG (1,570kb) downloaded 72 time(s). IMG_0694.JPG (854kb) downloaded 80 time(s).You cannot view/download attachments. Try to login or register.
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Since it's been evident on two systems, look for commonality between them. Were you using that Magewell card in the previous system?
Is it always the same camera? Same cabling? Same input on the input card?
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Rank: Advanced Member
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Most of the capture components are new, while all my cameras, cables and microphones are the same as before. I transitioned away from my old analog audio mixers and an ATEM TVS. The forum user IceStream thought the dropped frames may be a result of the ATEM, and I thought for sure he was right.
New Components
Desktop PC and Components - Windows 8.1
Magewell Capture Card
XKeys-32 Controller
Scarlett 18i20 USB Audio Interface
Old Components
All cabling
All Cameras
Microphones
Intel 120gig SSD Boot Drive
2 PNY 480gig SSD's (Replay & Live Capture)
So to narrow it down to the common denominators... it would be either my cabling, my SSD drives, or the software... I doubt that last part :-)
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Can you check the log file? It should show you if the dropped frames are due to cpu/disk or frame rate? Also try to take a screenshot of your statistics window to see any issues with any of your inputs.
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The dropped frames are caused by the source frame rate. I have mainly run 2 Canon HF G20's, and their frame rate settings claim PF30. According to vMix articles that would technically be 29.97p from what I have read. So I have my Camera Input set to 29.97p.
I have spent the last few days getting the new PC set-up in a new case and making sure everything else has been double checked. Tonight I will run a test and see what the Statistics and Logs have to say about it.
I'm still going to upload samples from my last live production to help you guys see what exactly is happening which may provide some more insight. Back to the Dungeon (basement) to try to replicate and isolate these problems. Thanks for the support.
Cpilcher
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I need to bump this back up due to some new details.
I have been trying everything to eliminate my dropped frames. I have tried everything I can think of as far as removing components and changing my setup with no success. I am also in contact with vMix Tech Support via email.
I have purchased an Atamos Ninja 2 recorder to temporarily record my program output while I am troubleshooting these problems. I have learned that my camera Canon HFG20 outputs 1080i59.94 regardless of the settings I choose in the camera. Which makes sense as that is the native feed straight from the sensor via HDMI. So I have my project settings, camera input and recording set to 1080i59.94.
I am outputting the program via my Intensity pro 4K to the Atamos Ninja 2 recorder but I am still experiencing the dropped frames. The audio stops and goes silent when this occurs, and the results are identical to what I experience when recording to disk on my PC. But I am only recording on the Ninja 2.
My CPU in vMix states 2% usage and Windows monitor claims 12% max usage overall. I have a huge production to run on the 20th and I thought offloading the recording would at least solve my problem in the short term but no luck.
Running the latest vMix 17.0.0.77
Chuck
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Can you look what happens if you record on the Atomos directly from the videocard fullscreen output?
That might give you the workaround or at least more info where this is happening.
Do you or do you not see this happen in vmix during the show?
Depending on what license you have, can you run the multicorder on both camera's to see if it already happens on the Magewell card, or later.
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Yes I will record from full screen tonight when I get back to my Video PC. I had started to do that but I noticed there was no audio being fed to the Atomos. Is there a way to get audio or is that just a Fullscreen Video feed?
I have vMix 4K. So I can test using the multicorder. Could you give me a little more info on what to look for? I assume I should set the multicorder to capture my camera feeds directly, with no other capture or export going on in vMix?
EDIT: Yes, I can tell when this happens during the show. It is almost like everything stops for a frame. It wasn't until I recorded it externally that I realized it was not just on the recording. As I have been testing, I brought an audio feed in from my phone through the Line-In on the PC and even that cuts out when the frames drop. Also Video clips from previous productions that are being played in a list input without any cameras attached to the system will suffer from this as well.
EDIT 2: I have also tried to use my Intensity Pro 4k to capture and I still receive the dropped frames, so I don't think it is the video card. I have changed out my graphics card, as well to eliminate that as the culprit. Blackmagic Media Express records fine without any problems on all tested setups...
Chuck
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Set your audio output to the atomos output within vMix, and there should be audio. You can also send A or B to the videocard output if you think that would be better in your setup.
I use a geforce card in my system and I get embedded audio on the videocard output, even if I use a DVI to HDMI converter on a DVI output, so that should also work for you, but you need to select it within vmix.
The multicorder records the data directly after the capture card, so that way you can see if it already has the dropped frames when it comes into vMix, or if it happens later on.
If the entire system freezes for a frame which you can see live, it seems more like the system has another problem which makes vMix have to little recources at that time. When you run the windows performance window, can't you see anything going on when it happens? It sounds more like you have short system freezes instead of dropped frames. The vMix log can say it has dropped frames because of source framerate as a result of that. I can imagine after a freeze if there still is a unprocessed frame in the framebuffer and there is a new frame captured, something needs to get dropped to keep it going.
Why don't you install a fresh windows on one of the PNY SSD's to see if that solves the problem? If it's not working after that you can connect the old SSD back again and make the recording SSD empty again. If it does solve the problem, you know what to do next.
The system specs you posted should do the job.
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Great, thanks for the detailed breakdown. I will run a test this evening and get back with the results.
I didn't know the multicorder details until I read up on it this afternoon. That is a perfect way to isolate the feed and hopefully narrow down the cause of the problem.
I have just done a fresh install of Windows 10 pro, but I will install on to another SSD and see if there are any changes. I am running out of nights to tweak this setup before I start kicking in to high anxiety over here :-)
Chuck
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Initial results from the multicorder (20 minute test) reveal 0 dropped frames from the Magewell capture card.
I ran a second test (20 minutes) with the multicorder recording as well as running the external output via Intensity Pro 4K. The multicorder completed with 0 dropped frames, while the external output dropped 4 frames due to source frame rate...
I am currently trying to output to the Atomos via the Fullscreen output with audio and I will update this post with the results. Once that completes I will give a second SSD a try to see if there is any improvement.
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OK... What a ride that was. While I was removing the SSD drives to swap out for another trial run with different hardware, I decided to tear the PC down to the motherboard, hopefully for the last time.
This raised some new problems that I have been able to work through regarding the DDR4 Ram and some memory issues with the Z170 chipset. so 12 hours later I am finally back to a fresh windows 10 install.
The Magewell Card had outdated firmware, so that is all updated.
So in conclusion, as I type this... I am currently 55 minutes into a capture via HDMI through the Magewell card with 0 (ZERO) dropped frames. It is still early in the game to be too confident in the current setup, but to date these are the best results I have had yet!
I do have a question though. I discovered the Magewell card was De-interlacing the video on the card itself so I changed that and am de-interlacing the feed within vMix. Is there a prefered method? Should I de-interlace on the card and bring the progressive footage into vMix?
Chuck
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Congratulations with the progress, let's hope this solved your problem.
About the deinterlacing on the magewell card or not, look what gives the best result and see if the magewell adds latency when deinterlacing is on.
Then just go with the best option for your use.
I like the hardware deinterlacing option on the magewell card, but as I don't own one myself, I have no idea about the quality differences and latency.
If you just record, latency is no issue of course.
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I hope I am getting to the end of the problems myself. Thanks for all your help.
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Please post your findings about the different magewell deinterlacing methods vs the vmix blend deinterlacer when you looked into it.
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I am so relieved to have put these issues behind me. It is still early in the testing but so far I am having amazing results.
1. I ran a test with a fresh install of vMix 17.0.0.77 with only 1 camera input and recording to MP4 25mbps. 1 hour test = zero dropped frames
2. I ran a single camera input, a desktop capture (to view frame rate and drop frame info over camera video), and an audio channel from my ipad to give a little more "stress" on top of the camera feed. I recorded this also on MP4 25mbps, and on the Atomos Ninja 2 on Prores Codec via Fullscreen output (I did get the audio working as well, so thanks for that). 5 hour test = zero dropped frames
I used to record the drop frame info onscreen so I could go back later and find the moment of glitch without needing to watch hours of footage to catch them. It was a big time saver while I was testing and tweaking.
These tests were done using 1920x1080 30p in vMix. I have had the best results using the on-board de-interlacing feature of the Magewell card. I have "Motion Adaptive" de-interlacing set in the options, the warning states "High CPU Usage" with this setting, but I didn't notice any extra CPU usage at all.
I also had issues with the Intensity Pro 4K as an External output, I had renderer dropped frames listed in the Performance Statistics window. but now that I can get audio out via Fullscreen I am just using that for now and I will return to External if I need to. But fullscreen output seems to be working great.
I don't even need the Atomos now that I can record to disk, but it is nice to have the High Bitrate backup and It is giving me another way to monitor the Output.
Thanks for helping, now I can put my time into cleaning up the production and not troubleshooting for hours each night. The future looks bright!
Chuck
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I bet if you record the inputs with the multicorder, they will also be deinterlaced, which I would like a lot. If it is even motion detection deinterlacing, that's a great plus.
But I think it will add a few frames latency to the inputs because of how motion detection deinterlacing works with comparing frames for detecting moving area's.
So when you need to also output to a projector, it might be better to choose internal deinterlacing within vmix.
Nice to read that your problems are over, I try to keep my vMix systems as clean as possible to prevent this kind of problems as much as possible. Most of the times this kind of problems comes from some other piece of software you have or had installed.
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I will run a test of the multicorder tonight and see what the results are.
And I agree about the clean systems. Once I get this running well I'm going to flash an image so I will always be able to get right back to this point.
Edit: And the latency so far looks great. 3 cameras and they look almost real time to me... I don't have low latency enabled either. I only wish I had waited since the Pro Capture cards came out right after I received this (First Gen) card.
Looking a little closer I can't see any noticeable difference from my live action (waiving my hand) and what appears both in the program output and Fullscreen output. I would say at most a frame or 2...
Chuck
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Update: I can confirm the multicorder will record the stream that you set in the device properties of the Magewell card. I used the vertical flip setting to give me a definite answer.
But the settings window has added some confusion... The Camera is a Canon HF G20, and it claims output of 1080 59.94i. The AMCAP software that is installed to access the capture settings states 59.95p (Not 59.94, and progressive). So I'm running a capture with the deinterlacing off on the Magewell and importing 59.94p in vMix with those settings globally. Any idea about this?
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Nope, I can only imagine the camera claiming output of 59.94i and you capturing 30 PsF
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