logo

Live Production Software Forums


Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

3 Pages123>
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
richardgatarski  
#1 Posted : Friday, September 15, 2017 5:38:01 PM(UTC)
richardgatarski

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,240
Location: Stockholm

Thanks: 103 times
Was thanked: 189 time(s) in 157 post(s)
Medialook offered us a chance to try an early beta, and we took it! Watch our crazy unplanned experiment in our YouTube channel. We'll blog about the background later. Edit: here is our promised blog post.
thanks 6 users thanked richardgatarski for this useful post.
DWAM on 9/15/2017(UTC), PFBM on 9/15/2017(UTC), ask on 9/15/2017(UTC), Zetor1980 on 9/16/2017(UTC), stevespaw on 9/26/2017(UTC), RobLambert on 10/30/2017(UTC)
IceStream  
#2 Posted : Friday, September 15, 2017 9:52:18 PM(UTC)
IceStream

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/7/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2,053
Man
Location: Canada

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 357 time(s) in 339 post(s)
@ richardgatarski

You guys are just too CRAZY!
Always the first kids on the block to actually test and use the latest tools, congrats guys.
I'm curious to know what differences you actually observed compared to vMixCall?


Ice
richardgatarski  
#3 Posted : Saturday, September 16, 2017 3:44:33 AM(UTC)
richardgatarski

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,240
Location: Stockholm

Thanks: 103 times
Was thanked: 189 time(s) in 157 post(s)
Thanks Ice :)

We didn't use vMix call from the same place, so no direct comparison was made. But besides that we noted much bettter video and quality (e.g. 50 fps vs max 30 fps), it is based on NDI. Meaning supporting everything that NDI provides.

Of course the Medialoooks solution (by them called MNSoI) requires more bandwidth, and means that one has to setup mix-minus audio. But my guess is that the code Martin has developed for vMix Call, could be extended to encompass MNSoI call functionality. In other words, just like setting up vMix call, where mix-minus is taken care of. In the end it is, besides development time, it is also a question of licensing costs and if Medialooks will release SKD's (which is their normal way for them).

ps. I updated my original post with a link to our blog post about this experiment.
richardgatarski  
#4 Posted : Saturday, September 16, 2017 9:05:54 AM(UTC)
richardgatarski

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,240
Location: Stockholm

Thanks: 103 times
Was thanked: 189 time(s) in 157 post(s)
Beginner's steps for those of you that want to try MNSoI with vMix.

1. Make sure that you test on two different networks. That is, don't try with two PCs on the same LAN. It sort of works, but is confusing (we ran into some strange behaviour, think NDI feedback loops).

2. Make sure you have a NDI feed on PC-A, eg vMix's Output.

3. On PC-A start the Publisher and make a note of the Room ID. The Publisher should list the Output from vMix. Select it (by a left-click) and wait a few seconds until the resolution/frame rates is pretty stable. Then click "Start Output".

4. On PC-B, start the Receiver, enter the Publisher's Room ID and click Connect. The Receiver should now list the NDI-feed from PC-A. Select it (by a left-click) and wait a few seconds until the resolution/frame rates is pretty stable. Then click "Start Output". Now the NDI-feed from PC-A is available on PC-B.

5. In vMix on PC-B, add a new NDI Input with the NDI-feed from PC-A.

5. Have fun!
kane  
#5 Posted : Saturday, September 16, 2017 10:20:19 AM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 307
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 89 post(s)
richardgatarski wrote:
We didn't use vMix call from the same place, so no direct comparison was made. But besides that we noted much bettter video and quality (e.g. 50 fps vs max 30 fps), it is based on NDI. Meaning supporting everything that NDI provides.


It certainly supports video and audio, but I'm not sure if it support alpha channel, commands, timecode or tally. I've not tried, it might, but I was under the impression that is it just video/audio right now. But, they have the ability to add those feature if needed since NDI® does make is available.

I know that the Sienna Cloud for NDI solution does support alpha channel transmission along with time stamping of multiple streams to keep them in sync on the far end.

The great thing is that there is now competition for this kind of solution, so we all will benefit.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
richardgatarski  
#6 Posted : Saturday, September 16, 2017 12:26:28 PM(UTC)
richardgatarski

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,240
Location: Stockholm

Thanks: 103 times
Was thanked: 189 time(s) in 157 post(s)
Yeah, we'll see where Medialooks takes their solution. I also suggested to their developers to consider support for webcams as inputs (they have SDI-card support in the pipeline).
zenvideo  
#7 Posted : Saturday, September 16, 2017 6:01:50 PM(UTC)
zenvideo

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/13/2014(UTC)
Posts: 256
Man
United Kingdom
Location: Manchester, UK

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 114 time(s) in 72 post(s)
kane wrote:
It certainly supports video and audio, but I'm not sure if it support alpha channel,...

You're right, it doesn't support the alpha in a RGBA source, at least not in the beta - I've tested it.
Maximus  
#8 Posted : Monday, September 18, 2017 7:41:17 AM(UTC)
Maximus

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/25/2012(UTC)
Posts: 113
Location: Barbados

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 17 time(s) in 17 post(s)
I also tested it between office and home and the audio/video was excellent. Setup is quite easy and is windows based. Sienna seems to have challenges using a windows platform for the gateway computer and recommend mac or unix. I am comfortable setting up my own mix-minus solution so not having it built in is ok.

Maxi
Stardancer  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, September 20, 2017 2:41:40 PM(UTC)
Stardancer

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 9/13/2017(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Kaliningrad

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 6 post(s)
Thanks guys for all your comments!

We've released a new version adding up to 50 Mbit/s streaming and virtual device output (now you can simply select it as a source in vMix thus saving performance by not encoding to NDI).

New download: https://www.medialooks.com/ndi.

We also changed the name of the app and made the first launch more obvious for the user. "MNSoI" wasn't exactly a planned name – although, it's still there in the name of the virtual device (will fix later).
dark_ata  
#10 Posted : Sunday, September 24, 2017 6:36:34 AM(UTC)
dark_ata

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tenerife

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 13 time(s) in 10 post(s)
i think that you have a win software, in our little test the 2.5mpbs not work always that i select 2.5mpbs and connect the preview freeze and the receiver not have signal. i see that is not cbr, the bitrate change if the connections is unstable? or is similar to crf of ffmpeg? it is possible or have in the roadmap the option to uses without internet ? we make some event and uses a WISP were we can uses more traffic in her lan but the internet output is more limited.

Thanks
kane  
#11 Posted : Sunday, September 24, 2017 9:24:09 AM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 307
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 89 post(s)
dark_ata wrote:
it is possible or have in the roadmap the option to uses without internet ? we make some event and uses a WISP were we can uses more traffic in her lan but the internet output is more limited.

Thanks


Perhaps I'm missing something here, but NDI already works on a LAN. Are you trying to do everything wireless?

Kane Peterson
NewTek
dark_ata  
#12 Posted : Sunday, September 24, 2017 10:33:08 AM(UTC)
dark_ata

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tenerife

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 13 time(s) in 10 post(s)
kane wrote:
dark_ata wrote:
it is possible or have in the roadmap the option to uses without internet ? we make some event and uses a WISP were we can uses more traffic in her lan but the internet output is more limited.

Thanks


Perhaps I'm missing something here, but NDI already works on a LAN. Are you trying to do everything wireless?

Kane Peterson
NewTek


yes, we uses the network of the wisp but is around 30-50mbps and have 2-3 points at the same time, the NDI-HX in vmix should be another solution.
At the moment i look better birddog option than the spark. but we dont discard buy one spark
DWAM  
#13 Posted : Sunday, September 24, 2017 11:03:11 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,915
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 139 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 412 post(s)
Hi

it's not clear what you're trying to do, but it's clear to me that it's a very bad idea:

- to try to use pure NDI on a wireless network that you don't own and that is not dedicated to IP Video
- to expect to do such a thing even with NDI|HX
- to use NDI Over Internet services as a solution instead of building a LAN to physically interconnect devices that share a single location

I also believe 2.5 Mbits is far from enough for NDI (or even H.264) to work well...

Guillaume
kane  
#14 Posted : Sunday, September 24, 2017 1:26:37 PM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 307
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 89 post(s)
dark_ata wrote:
the NDI-HX in vmix should be another solution.


I'm thinking you are expecting NDI|HX™ output from vMix, that isn't going to happen. NDI|HX is for hardware devices (like Spark and NDI PTZ1 cameras), software applications can receive NDI|HX but not send it. BirdDog Studio is also using full bandwidth NDI, not NDI|HX, this would not be a good solution for wireless.

As Guillaume mentions, if you are you trying to build your ENTIRE production LAN over a WiFi infrastructure, be ready for disappointment.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
dark_ata  
#15 Posted : Monday, September 25, 2017 8:36:14 AM(UTC)
dark_ata

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/10/2015(UTC)
Posts: 102
Location: Tenerife

Thanks: 5 times
Was thanked: 13 time(s) in 10 post(s)
kane wrote:

I'm thinking you are expecting NDI|HX™ output from vMix, that isn't going to happen.


this is a bad news.


kane wrote:
BirdDog Studio is also using full bandwidth NDI, not NDI|HX, this would not be a good solution for wireless.

Sorry for the confusion, i know that the BirdDog is Full NDI, i speak in our regular works i think that the birddog studio is better option, where we can uses cat6 cables or sdi. For us the spark is a good alternative for work in a steadycam but we have two wireless uncompressed sdi.

kane wrote:

As Guillaume mentions, if you are you trying to build your ENTIRE production LAN over a WiFi infrastructure, be ready for disappointment.


We have make some UltraTrail, where in the finish of ultra (OB truck plus 3-4 cameras and teradek bolt 2000, our CG, videocall) we receive using the WISP network the start line(vmix 2-4 cameras), teradek bonds in 4-5 positions, fixed cameras,start of the medium marathon(vmix 2 cameras), finish of the trail(vmix 2-4 cameras and teradek bolt 2000) I know the problems very well of all the the wireless video type as you can see, uncompressed (teradek bolt) 4g ( teradek bond/liveu LU500) wireless tcp networks, for this type of work NDI|HX or the solution of Medialook in local networks are great solutions and always we are looking for any way to make better and more easy our work.
GoGo  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, September 26, 2017 9:03:55 AM(UTC)
GoGo

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/10/2017(UTC)
Posts: 63
Location: Philadelphia

Thanks: 51 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Stardancer wrote:
Thanks guys for all your comments!

We've released a new version adding up to 50 Mbit/s streaming and virtual device output (now you can simply select it as a source in vMix thus saving performance by not encoding to NDI).

New download: https://www.medialooks.com/ndi.

We also changed the name of the app and made the first launch more obvious for the user. "MNSoI" wasn't exactly a planned name – although, it's still there in the name of the virtual device (will fix later).



If you do not have certain apps like Vmix, is there any option for someone to download this Medialooks and still be able to connect?
DWAM  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, September 26, 2017 9:40:36 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 1,915
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 139 times
Was thanked: 512 time(s) in 412 post(s)
Hi Gogo

to use NDI it's mandatory to use NDI compatible solutions.
Check : https://www.newtek.com/ndi/applications/

For example one could receive over internet a NDI feed with Medialook's software and pass it to NDI Monitor.

Guillaume
thanks 1 user thanked DWAM for this useful post.
GoGo on 9/26/2017(UTC)
kane  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, September 26, 2017 1:21:29 PM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 307
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 133 time(s) in 89 post(s)
dark_ata wrote:
kane wrote:

I'm thinking you are expecting NDI|HX™ output from vMix, that isn't going to happen.


this is a bad news.



I should mention. You aren't going to get NDI|HX directly out of vMix, but you can connect a Spark to the output of vMix which will get you NDI|HX. It is possible, just not in the way you are thinking.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
Stardancer  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:10:32 AM(UTC)
Stardancer

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 9/13/2017(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Kaliningrad

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 6 post(s)
dark_ata wrote:
i think that you have a win software, in our little test the 2.5mpbs not work always that i select 2.5mpbs and connect the preview freeze and the receiver not have signal. i see that is not cbr, the bitrate change if the connections is unstable? or is similar to crf of ffmpeg? it is possible or have in the roadmap the option to uses without internet ? we make some event and uses a WISP were we can uses more traffic in her lan but the internet output is more limited.

Thanks for trying out and thanks for describing your use case.

The codec works in CBR mode, but we control it depending on the available bandwidth (adaptive bit rate) – so this setting simply defines the maximum bit rate.

We also don't recommend using anything less than 5 Mbps for HD streams.

But how exactly does the problem look when using our app in a local area network (Richard also mentioned this in an earlier post)?
Stardancer  
#20 Posted : Thursday, October 19, 2017 6:13:45 AM(UTC)
Stardancer

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 9/13/2017(UTC)
Posts: 16
Location: Kaliningrad

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 6 post(s)
Hello guys!

We've uploaded a new version yesterday:

– TURN server will now be used automatically when no direct connection can be established between the Publisher and Receiver.
– TURN indicator added to UI.
– Watermark removed.

We do not promise that the TURN feature will remain in the free version (it can be traffic-consuming).

You can download the new version here: https://www.medialooks.com/ndi.

If you have a real-life use case for this product and we haven't spoken to you yet – please reach out to us directly.
thanks 2 users thanked Stardancer for this useful post.
stevespaw on 10/19/2017(UTC), rowby on 2/2/2018(UTC)
Users browsing this topic
3 Pages123>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.