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waterprof  
#1 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 8:04:51 AM(UTC)
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Hello,

I've read and researched a lot about this and I just am pretty exhausted and I thought I could just write a semi-simple question. I might escalate this into more question and delve into more details, but I'll not to get side tracked. I'd say my English is pretty good, but it's not my first language so please bear with me if you see any annoying little mistakes (big ones shouldn't get past the "post" button)

Let's get to the point. My set-up is such:

Laptop:
LENOVO Z710

Intel Core i7 (4th Gen) 4700MQ / 2.4 GHz - 4 cores / 8 threads
8GB RAM, unfortunately can't tell the DRM or speed.
NVidia GeForce GT 745M
1TB unnamed HDD

Camera:
Panasonic HC V-770
Unnamed tripod

An issues might be me not knowing what model/type of capture card, but I am 90% sure it is used for our local/national sports channel as they kind of recommended it, so there shouldn't be a problem (Although I repeat, shouldn't doesn't mean there isn't).

The issue:
So, the issue is actual streaming problems, performance wise. Our goal is:
- 720p/50fps Input with our camera as source.
- 2 different XHTML inputs for scoreboard, custom made for us (one is for team names/tournament name and other is for time)
- 1-5 image inputs for overlays (like upcoming match, who's vs who)
- Video delay input used as a cheap replay system
- Audio input for commentators
- Recording everything using the in-built vMix recording feature

And this is where the problem starts. The computer can't do all of it, we start having heavy and I mean super heavy frame drops. Even without recording there are frame drops. Rendering speed is also above 20ms.

Why am I writing here instead of telling the management to invest into more powerful PC/Laptop? Because the "Reference system" section of the website makes me think that everything should be fine, so my question would be, why isn't it? I am at work at the moment, but I will try to answer any and all questions you might have about our setup. And I am super sorry if this seems awfully chaotic but I just don't know in what order should I organize everything to make it more understandable for anyone who might read this.

I might've missed something crucial so please do tell me if it is so. Thank you so much for your help!

With best regards,
waterprof


EDIT: As I've thought about it I've come to conclusion that Hardware Compatibility might not be the best place for the post to be, an admin is welcomed to move it if he/she deems it necessary.
Siroki  
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 8:59:30 AM(UTC)
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I think your laptop should easy do the stream. I make 720p live stream with older i3 and 4GB ram, 1 camera 720p/50 source over hdmi, lots of inputs, custom graphics, camera over USB for scoreboard clock and it goes around 40-50% of CPU usage

Can you tell us what are you doing on output.

What is your output setup? Bitrate, framerate etc
Recording setup?
waterprof  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 9:28:01 AM(UTC)
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Siroki wrote:
I think your laptop should easy do the stream. I make 720p live stream with older i3 and 4GB ram, 1 camera 720p/50 source over hdmi, lots of inputs, custom graphics, camera over USB for scoreboard clock and it goes around 40-50% of CPU usage

Can you tell us what are you doing on output.

What is your output setup? Bitrate, framerate etc
Recording setup?


Ok, thanks for the answer, that's what I thought, that there shouldn't be any problems.

Set-up is 1280x720 resolution, 50p PAL, 7500/10000bitrate (upload speed allows that), it is a bit hard to remember everything as I do not have the streaming laptop in front of me. For recording I tried to use the recommended one for editing (with .ts extension) MPEG-2 I think.

Just a quick question, increasing bitrate = increased stream quality? I'd think so, but so far there hasn't been a drastic difference between 7500 or 10000, and previously we used 5000 bitrate. And it seems to me that quality hasn't increased at all, maybe I should check them out side by side.

Thank you!
stigaard  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:12:12 AM(UTC)
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The first thing that comes to mind when I read the post is that the integrated graphics card is used when running vMix, and not the nVidia graphics card.

Go to settings and check which graphic card is in use under Performance.

To run vMix with the correct graphics card: Rightclick at the thumbnail for vMix.exe (vMix64.exe if you want 64bit) and choose your nVidia graphics card under "Run with graphics processor".
stigaard attached the following image(s):
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waterprof  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 10:30:23 AM(UTC)
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stigaard wrote:
The first thing that comes to mind when I read the post is that the integrated graphics card is used when running vMix, and not the nVidia graphics card.

Go to settings and check which graphic card is in use under Performance.

To run vMix with the correct graphics card: Rightclick at the thumbnail for vMix.exe (vMix64.exe if you want 64bit) and choose your nVidia graphics card under "Run with graphics processor".



Yes, it is running with nVidia GeForce card 100%.

EDIT: I'll be able to provide this post with images of settings that I use, but I can't at the moment, because I am working at the moment.
IceStream  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 11:04:31 AM(UTC)
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@ waterprof

My first reaction to your specs was that the GPU is probably a little underpowered.
My rule of thumb is NVidia GeForce x60 series of cards or better.
(just my opinion)

GPU Shark is a tool you can use to monitor your GPU stats during usage:

http://www.ozone3d.net/gpushark/

Also, you can use a product like FurMark to do a GPU Stress test to get an idea of your GPU performance capabilities:

http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/


Ice

Siroki  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 8, 2016 11:26:26 AM(UTC)
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waterprof wrote:
Siroki wrote:
I think your laptop should easy do the stream. I make 720p live stream with older i3 and 4GB ram, 1 camera 720p/50 source over hdmi, lots of inputs, custom graphics, camera over USB for scoreboard clock and it goes around 40-50% of CPU usage

Can you tell us what are you doing on output.

What is your output setup? Bitrate, framerate etc
Recording setup?


Ok, thanks for the answer, that's what I thought, that there shouldn't be any problems.

Set-up is 1280x720 resolution, 50p PAL, 7500/10000bitrate (upload speed allows that), it is a bit hard to remember everything as I do not have the streaming laptop in front of me. For recording I tried to use the recommended one for editing (with .ts extension) MPEG-2 I think.

Just a quick question, increasing bitrate = increased stream quality? I'd think so, but so far there hasn't been a drastic difference between 7500 or 10000, and previously we used 5000 bitrate. And it seems to me that quality hasn't increased at all, maybe I should check them out side by side.

Thank you!


First put 25p on output and you will see that your CPU usage will drastically go down. If you wanna go on 50p ok but I don't do that.
Second, you don't need 10 000 or 7500 bitrate for 720p streaming. Your 720p will go great on 5-6 mbit bitrate, even lower. But i think this will not affect CPU usage so much. For 50p you need higher bitrate but I don't use that so I don't have idea how it goes. I am not expert for this but from experience I am talking 25 or 50
waterprof  
#8 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2016 2:33:04 AM(UTC)
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IceStream wrote:
@ waterprof

My first reaction to your specs was that the GPU is probably a little underpowered.
My rule of thumb is NVidia GeForce x60 series of cards or better.
(just my opinion)

GPU Shark is a tool you can use to monitor your GPU stats during usage:

http://www.ozone3d.net/gpushark/

Also, you can use a product like FurMark to do a GPU Stress test to get an idea of your GPU performance capabilities:

http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/


Ice




I will try this later today, thanks! And post results here. Unfortunately had some unforeseen business that I had to deal with yesterday, couldn't get home to fix things.

Siroki wrote:


First put 25p on output and you will see that your CPU usage will drastically go down. If you wanna go on 50p ok but I don't do that.
Second, you don't need 10 000 or 7500 bitrate for 720p streaming. Your 720p will go great on 5-6 mbit bitrate, even lower. But i think this will not affect CPU usage so much. For 50p you need higher bitrate but I don't use that so I don't have idea how it goes. I am not expert for this but from experience I am talking 25 or 50


We really can't switch to 25p, because it's sports broadcast/livestream, so that really isn't an option. And if 720p would look good with 5mbit bitrate, then I concluded that 10mbit bitrate would be necessary for 50p livestream.
ask  
#9 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2016 2:42:21 AM(UTC)
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You are going to kill your CPU with those streaming bitrates. THis is what YT suggests for 720p

720p
Resolution: 1280x720
Video Bitrate Range: 1,500 - 4,000 Kbps

I get very good results at 1500 with the same resolution and framerates as you want to. Remember also that very few viewers can download a 10000mbs stream, and it would certainly kill a viewer's cell plan.

Siroki  
#10 Posted : Friday, December 9, 2016 4:25:09 AM(UTC)
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waterprof wrote:
IceStream wrote:
@ waterprof

My first reaction to your specs was that the GPU is probably a little underpowered.
My rule of thumb is NVidia GeForce x60 series of cards or better.
(just my opinion)

GPU Shark is a tool you can use to monitor your GPU stats during usage:

http://www.ozone3d.net/gpushark/

Also, you can use a product like FurMark to do a GPU Stress test to get an idea of your GPU performance capabilities:

http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/


Ice




I will try this later today, thanks! And post results here. Unfortunately had some unforeseen business that I had to deal with yesterday, couldn't get home to fix things.

Siroki wrote:


First put 25p on output and you will see that your CPU usage will drastically go down. If you wanna go on 50p ok but I don't do that.
Second, you don't need 10 000 or 7500 bitrate for 720p streaming. Your 720p will go great on 5-6 mbit bitrate, even lower. But i think this will not affect CPU usage so much. For 50p you need higher bitrate but I don't use that so I don't have idea how it goes. I am not expert for this but from experience I am talking 25 or 50


We really can't switch to 25p, because it's sports broadcast/livestream, so that really isn't an option. And if 720p would look good with 5mbit bitrate, then I concluded that 10mbit bitrate would be necessary for 50p livestream.


I stream sport also, 95% of my stream events are basketball, soccer and volleyball games. I don't have any problems with 25p 1280x720 streaming settings. Just try. I don't think anyone who is watching or either you will know the difference
Teye  
#11 Posted : Sunday, December 11, 2016 9:03:16 PM(UTC)
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I might have missed it but ...what are you using for a video capture device....another part of the chain ...
waterprof  
#12 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2016 4:48:24 AM(UTC)
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ask wrote:
You are going to kill your CPU with those streaming bitrates. THis is what YT suggests for 720p

720p
Resolution: 1280x720
Video Bitrate Range: 1,500 - 4,000 Kbps

I get very good results at 1500 with the same resolution and framerates as you want to. Remember also that very few viewers can download a 10000mbs stream, and it would certainly kill a viewer's cell plan.




Yeah, I switched to 5000 Kbps just now, don't think that 10000 Kbps is really needed, doesn't seem to increase the quality in itself.
waterprof  
#13 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2016 4:49:58 AM(UTC)
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Teye wrote:
I might have missed it but ...what are you using for a video capture device....another part of the chain ...


Uhh, this is where the things get fuzzy. About video capture device:

waterprof wrote:
An issues might be me not knowing what model/type of capture card, but I am 90% sure it is used for our local/national sports channel as they kind of recommended it, so there shouldn't be a problem (Although I repeat, shouldn't doesn't mean there isn't).


This is what I wrote in my introduction post, don't really know if the answer helps.
waterprof  
#14 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2016 5:00:54 AM(UTC)
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Siroki wrote:

I stream sport also, 95% of my stream events are basketball, soccer and volleyball games. I don't have any problems with 25p 1280x720 streaming settings. Just try. I don't think anyone who is watching or either you will know the difference



Hmm, I tried using 720/25, but the difference was immediately noticeable, that is, if I changed the settings you wanted me to change.


These are my Streaming Quality Settings

Also, what are anyone's thoughts or preferences on FMLE vs FFMPEG? At the moment I am using FMLE
waterprof  
#15 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2016 5:12:25 AM(UTC)
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IceStream wrote:
@ waterprof

My first reaction to your specs was that the GPU is probably a little underpowered.
My rule of thumb is NVidia GeForce x60 series of cards or better.
(just my opinion)

GPU Shark is a tool you can use to monitor your GPU stats during usage:

http://www.ozone3d.net/gpushark/

Also, you can use a product like FurMark to do a GPU Stress test to get an idea of your GPU performance capabilities:

http://www.ozone3d.net/benchmarks/fur/


Ice



Thanks for the tools, don't really want to use a GPU Stress test, too scary. The GPU stat monitoring app shows that GPU Usage is around 60% (max 99%, but that was during a short GPU Stress test). Memory usage is 289MB from 2000MB, and doesn't seem to increase at all. Should I be concerned about that? Or it's just that vMix doesn't use a lot of memory of graphic cards.
waterprof  
#16 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2016 6:12:23 AM(UTC)
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I don't know if this is allowed, but here is a link to the stream, if anyone wants to check out to see if there are any obvious issues. Stream link

If it's not, admins are, of course, free to remove this message.
sinc747  
#17 Posted : Monday, December 12, 2016 12:41:30 PM(UTC)
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As a long-time user of FMLE, I was amazed at the difference FFMPEG made as the encoder. CPU use dropped dramatically, the quality of my stream improved, I could stream at higher resolutions using the same bit rate. It was a great improvement over FMLE. I highly encourage you to switch to FFMPEG.

Also, the comment about your GPU being a bit under powered may have some merit. Check the vMix Supported Hardware page for recommended specifications. Don't underestimate the GPU needs for a 720p/50 stream.

Hope this helps.

- Tom
Siroki  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, December 13, 2016 4:59:33 AM(UTC)
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waterprof wrote:
Siroki wrote:

I stream sport also, 95% of my stream events are basketball, soccer and volleyball games. I don't have any problems with 25p 1280x720 streaming settings. Just try. I don't think anyone who is watching or either you will know the difference



Hmm, I tried using 720/25, but the difference was immediately noticeable, that is, if I changed the settings you wanted me to change.


These are my Streaming Quality Settings

Also, what are anyone's thoughts or preferences on FMLE vs FFMPEG? At the moment I am using FMLE


Here is your problem. Don't use FMLE, use FFMPEG. I also try FMLE and my CPU was on 90-100%.
Switch tu FFMPEG and ewven with 10 000 bitrate your CPU will be ok. Just try

One more thing, if you are streaming on youtube, put audio at least 128kbit/s and I red somewhere that its recommended AAC audio codec but I think MP3 is ok too.
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