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mjgraves  
#1 Posted : Saturday, August 6, 2016 7:27:51 PM(UTC)
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Today I updated one of my systems with Windows 10 Anniversary update.

Post update none of my many USB-attached cameras can be configured for MJPEG or H264.

I tried various cameras and applications, including vMix.

https://www.mgraves.org/...sb-camera-functionality/

I eventually wrote some notes about my experience and opened a trouble ticket with Microsoft.

Michael


AlanZ  
#2 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2016 10:05:05 AM(UTC)
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I upgraded a desktop computer to the Anniversary edition, and as expected, a preset with a c920 and a c930e loaded but said the cameras were offline.
I deleted those inputs and was able to add and configure two new inputs, and now the cameras appear to be working as expected.
I am using the vMix output for Skype and Zoom, so the system is configured for 720p. I haven't tried 1080p.
mjgraves  
#3 Posted : Sunday, August 7, 2016 1:33:35 PM(UTC)
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AlanZ wrote:
I upgraded a desktop computer to the Anniversary edition, and as expected, a preset with a c920 and a c930e loaded but said the cameras were offline.
I deleted those inputs and was able to add and configure two new inputs, and now the cameras appear to be working as expected.
I am using the vMix output for Skype and Zoom, so the system is configured for 720p. I haven't tried 1080p.


720p30 is the best that can be managed without resorting to using compression over the USB connection. Historically, using MJPEG has been a great way to handle issues of USB bandwidth limits when using multiple cameras.
mjgraves  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:43:27 AM(UTC)
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Here's a thread about this matter that has emerged on MSDN.

https://social.msdn.micr...diafoundationdevelopment

Someone from the MS camera dev team is explaining and even defending the change.

Anyone who develops on Windows (Martin & Co?) should add their voices to the discussion.
RoboST  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 1:17:29 PM(UTC)
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interesting, Mike M states the Anniversary Update adds a splitcam type native ability (or as he posted "concurrent camera access") to Win10


Also, more updated good info how this is now working (and how he went around it for this example to verify 1080p30 mjpg could still be accessed): http://alax.info/blog/1686

Quote:
That is, if your application is broken by Windows 10 Anniversary Update because you simply assumed availability of specific modes, then there is a chance that update of the application to make it compatible to new platform design with FrameServer service could fix it. If you intentionally consumed compressed video for quality, rate and performance reasons then you’re in trouble and there is no really a solution from Microsoft is expected soon. Perhaps the best would be to not upgrade to Anniversary Update.


Quote:
A small proof-of-concept DirectShow video source filter that talks to Logitech C930e camera bypassing newly introduced stuff is confirming that streams like 1920×1080@30 MJPG are still supported by the camera and are operational. That is, it is still possible to stream MJPG and H264 from USB web cameras, specifically at modes exceeding standard USB 2.0 bandwidth limit for raw video, and eliminating software compression:


UserPostedImage
mjgraves  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 2:51:30 PM(UTC)
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Yes, the change was deliberate, if not well communicated.

That means that there's some work for application developers to get in sync with the new reality.

There's an opportunity for someone to write a wrapper that gets around the new architecture, which most people will find simply unnecessary.

It's worth mentioning that this kind of trickery in the driver was one of the things that relegated the Microsoft Lifecam Studio to the back of the bus, leaving Logitech to a command of the marketplace for such devices.

The LifeCam Studio had a 1080p sensor and was supposed to be able to deliver 1080p30. When init'd to 1080p30 the camera compressed the frames and the MS driver was supposed to decompress them at the host PC. The idea was to insulate the client application from from the details. The process, while effectively hidden, was not very robust. Few actually achieved what was possible. Eventually people simply preferred Logitech webcams.
kane  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:01:36 PM(UTC)
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After reading all of this, I just took a look at using NDI Connect with a webcam input which before wouldn't access my laptop's built in webcam at anything higher than 480p. Now with the Windows 10 Anniversary update installed, I can access the webcam at 1080p/30!

Then I tried my Logitech C920 with NDI Connect and it too can access the webcam at 1080p/30. It would appear that while the Win10 Anniversary update might break some apps, it isn't that Windows 10 can't take advantage of the compressed modes, just that you need to let Windows 10 do the work for you.

Kane Peterson
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admin  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:21:30 PM(UTC)
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Hi guys,

I've done a little bit of research on this, and it looks like the changes made in the Anniversary update are well intentioned
and would even be beneficial to vMix if implemented correctly, but it looks like there are some side effects to these updates that Microsoft didn't consider.

The change is for allowing webcam sharing, and it does this by converting the webcam format to YUY2 within Windows regardless of source format, so
all applications have access to the uncompressed video without having to decode things like MJPG and H264 multiple times.

So far so good, as Windows could actually do this at lower latency and less CPU than vMix could. YUY2 is also the highest possible quality in this scenario.

Problem is many USB 2.0 webcams offer direct support for YUY2 alongside MJPG and H264 and the Anniversary update appears to choose YUY2 if available.
This results in very low frame rates in HD as sending uncompressed YUY2 over USB2 is just not fast enough.

The simply fix in my view, is for there to be a "preferred native video format" dropdown box for each webcam in the control panel.

In any case, it looks like Microsoft have heard your feedback and are working on an alternative. We shall see what they come up with...

Regards,

Martin
vMix
thanks 2 users thanked admin for this useful post.
sinc747 on 8/17/2016(UTC), mjgraves on 8/17/2016(UTC)
kane  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, August 16, 2016 11:37:34 PM(UTC)
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Martin, thanks for the information.

I don't want anyone to take my previous post as that something was being done incorrectly. In my case, I was happy to see that in reading this thread I discovered something that improved things.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
mjgraves  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 18, 2016 12:34:26 PM(UTC)
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Many people are reporting that the new frame service is a serious problem. Further, it seems that the most common webcam in the world (Logitech C920) is now failing with Skype.

This has pushed Microsoft to agree to work on allowing MJPEG access via the new frame server mechanism. That will be implemented in a future update.

There's conceptual agreement with respect to H.264 as well. Although it seems that will be harder to achieve, so considered a separate matter.
RoboST  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 18, 2016 1:27:23 PM(UTC)
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mjgraves wrote:


This has pushed Microsoft to agree to work on allowing MJPEG access via the new frame server mechanism. That will be implemented in a future update.



I wonder if this will be an "Exclusive Access" like option for the webcam.

going to the other links now (above) for updates..


On a side note, I see that all Windows 10 PCs will get Windows Holographic access in an update next year... perhaps these new (and needed) internal mechanisms are part of the grand plan (and the need to access the hololens live camera stream at anytime) ....
mjgraves  
#12 Posted : Saturday, August 20, 2016 6:33:13 PM(UTC)
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Today there seems to have been a firestorm as the masses came to see that Skype is fundamentally broken as a result.

http://arstechnica.com/i...?comments=1&start=40

https://www.thurrott.com...ws-10-anniversary-update

The real news is that someone has revealed a registry hack the disables the frame server, bringing the system back to normal behavior.

Quote:
This should restore pre-Windows 10 Anniversary Update behavior and unblock webcams experiencing the freezing-after-few-seconds issue:
Try opening up HKLM\SOFTWARE\WOW6432Node\Microsoft\Windows Media Foundation\Platform and add a DWORD with name EnableFrameServerMode. Set its value to 0 and try again. For 64-bit apps (e.g. UWP Skype), use the same path above, minus WOW6432Node.

Put a sticky note on your monitor to revisit this if/when Microsoft issues a fix.


I just applied this fix to my laptop. Both vMix and OBS Studio can now use the C930e in 1080p30 MJPEG mode.

thanks 1 user thanked mjgraves for this useful post.
RoboST on 8/21/2016(UTC)
jammerxd  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, January 4, 2017 3:56:55 AM(UTC)
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Those solutions don't fix it for me. Any other ideas, anyone?
madness  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, January 4, 2017 11:41:00 AM(UTC)
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What version/revision of windows 10 are you using?

I had to recently do a rebuild of windows from scratch, and first run of vMix worked straight up on the newly up to date machine.
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