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FAndreas  
#1 Posted : Thursday, September 10, 2015 4:33:34 PM(UTC)
FAndreas

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Hello,

today I watched the September keynote from Apple.
Ok, the meantime I tried because of the terrible interrupts probably caused by the CDN not capable to serve all the viewers at the same time?

But when the stream has worked the video quality was impressive. Ok, so they have definitely excellent cams and other equipment, no question. But I wonder why their stream at 30 fps is absolutely smooth without any lags or stuttering when I must use 50 fps output to come somewhat close to it.

50p input, 50p master frame rate, 50p streaming output. But not half so smooth... :(

What do you think? Do the pro cams and hardware switchers the trick?

Regards,
Andreas
admin  
#2 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 5:23:07 AM(UTC)
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30p should be just as smooth in vMix and 50p more so.
If you are seeing stuttering there could be a number of causes, such as using cameras with different frame rates, not setting
the frame rates in vMix to all match, or the graphics card might not be keeping up (seen by a render time higher than 20ms in vMix)
thanks 2 users thanked admin for this useful post.
PFBM on 9/11/2015(UTC), madness on 9/11/2015(UTC)
FAndreas  
#3 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 8:06:16 AM(UTC)
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Yes it should be. But it doesn't.
I'm using vMix for some time now and I think that I'm aware of the best practices and the parameters in vMix.
I have two PCs running vMix. One of this with a cheap Sony Handycam and the other System with a more expensive Canon Legria HF G30. Both cams running with 720p50 output. And even I input only one of these cams in vMix I don't get a result which is approximately smooth as in the Apple Keynote.

I can't see where I make a mistake?

IceStream  
#4 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 10:11:36 AM(UTC)
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@ FAndreas

What exactly is your definition of "smooth"?

Undoubtedly, professional broadcast cameras, lenses, and lighting are going to provide a much "richer" and more "refined" picture quality.
Hardware switchers are notoriously "smooth" and "precise" for transitioning between images.
Standalone hardware streaming encoders are designed to do one thing, and do it very well.
So pardon the pun, but it's hard to compare apples to oranges here without knowing what you mean by 'Smooth'...

The implication is that by comparison, your 'broadcasts' with vMix are "choppy" (i.e. looks like 15 fps as opposed to 30 fps).
As vMix Admin has alluded to this has more to do with the encoding and processing within your system and it's ability to multi-task as well the connection to your CDN.

I don't know because I can't see what you are seeing, but I suspect the differences you are noticing have more to do with the equipment being used (professional broadcast vs consumer/prosumer) than anything else.
There is a reason why high end productions cost so much, a tripod can cost as much as your entire vMix set-up, so side-by-side comparisons can be unfair unless you do a cost analysis comparison as well.

Just my thoughts.


Ice
FAndreas  
#5 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 11:35:26 AM(UTC)
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Hei Ice,

yes, you are right. It's definitly impossible to compare the quality and "smootheness" of a video without seeing the output. And for me it's particularly difficult to explain because I struggle with the correct english words. :)
Maybe I try to upload a sample movie in the next days.

Iam speaking about the movement of objects in videos. For example if a person walks through the image. How fluently this goes. In 25p or 30p output mode the movement of the person looks a bit choppy. In 50p output mode it's much better. Almost "smooth" but not completely. I think the output is already on a high level, but just not where I would like.

And yes, maybe it simply depends on camera hardware in my case.

I don't wanna blame vMix for this, I just want to understand why is that.

Regards,
Andreas
dundurs  
#6 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 12:30:09 PM(UTC)
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Actually 30k usd camera will look the same as 1k usd camera in terms of motion. The price has nothing to do with it, assuming camera outputs according to SMPTE standards. And vMix will process the both cameras the same way.

I suggest you play around with the frame rate, interlacing options and shutter speed to achieve the best result for your specific situation. For example, if you want to improve the quality of motion at 30fps, you can always try outputting 60i, use deinterlace blend. Or you could experiment with setting the fps in camera to 30fps, shutter to 1/60 or go wild and set the shutter to 1/30, and see what happens then.
Bardos  
#7 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 12:33:18 PM(UTC)
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If you are using PAL, then use 50p, ..if you are using NTSC, then 30p.....
admin  
#8 Posted : Friday, September 11, 2015 1:31:56 PM(UTC)
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To match the smooth 30p, the cameras should be set to 30p or 29.97p in camera as well.
I think the problem with streaming 50p is most browsers dont play that back very well at the moment.

Stick with either 25p or 30p when streaming and match those frame rates in camera and it should be fine.


FAndreas  
#9 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2015 3:51:08 AM(UTC)
FAndreas

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Thank you all for your suggestions.

The cheap Sony camcorder outputs in 50p and it's not possible to change this.
My Canon Legria outputs in 50p as well in 720p and I think it's also not possible to change with this resolution.
So for me it's not possible to put the complete workflow in 25p or 30p. I always have to deal with different framerates for input and output when I like to stream in 25/30p. Shuttder speed and other camera options are only possible on my Legria, I have to test this to check if it's affect the motion on stream.

I've read several times that 50p can make problems in some browsers. But in my tests with different browsers I don't had any problems?

Is it theoretically better to stream in 30p or 25p with 50p inputs and a master frame rate of 50p in vMix? I always thought 25p is better because of "dropping excatly half of frames"?

Regards
richardgatarski  
#10 Posted : Saturday, September 12, 2015 5:59:08 AM(UTC)
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We typically produce in 50p (main setting), and stream at 25p (external set to that). Effective both for CPU and bandwith.
Still not all CDN's support 50p all the way.
Even at low bit rates (1.5 mbps) a 25p stream is pretty smooth. For some productions (like sport) 50p is of course smoother.
As said earlier, if you have problems with stuttering that is more likely an underpowered PC or problems with camera settings, which you would se in Preview/Output anyway.
FAndreas  
#11 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2015 8:25:40 AM(UTC)
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So, I tested again a lot in the last days on my two PC to figure out what the problem is.
For me it remains as it is. Only when I stream in 50p I get a nearly smooth stream. It is so good that I can actually speak of smooth. Smooth like Keynote smooth... :)

Richard, I do not understand how you get smooth 25p output with a production in 50p?
I do not reach it on my two setups. :(

Again, all the values ​​are ok. CPU, Render Time, Frame Drops, and so on.
But I have for me clearly visible stuttering. Not intense but visible.

When I finally manage to take a record, then I put it in here.

Regards,
Andreas.
admin  
#12 Posted : Monday, September 14, 2015 11:54:25 AM(UTC)
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Maybe you could upload a video recording so we can take a look?

Maybe the stuttering you are referring to is just a side effect of the 25p frame rate in which case compare
it with other 25p videos elsewhere and am sure it will look the same.

30p can be smoother to a lot of viewers, but you are not going to be able to convert 50p to 30p
smoothly as they do not divide evenly.
FAndreas  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, September 15, 2015 4:15:06 AM(UTC)
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I will create and upload a video as soon as possible.
But what you said could be true. Maybe it's just 25p like it normally is. Most videos I found are 30p.
But you confirm my presumption that it's no good idea to convert 50p to 30p because of they do not divide evenly.
FAndreas  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2015 2:39:57 PM(UTC)
FAndreas

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So, today I have recorded a test video in 25p on my nginx rtmp server while I was streaming.
In StrobeMediaPlayback I saw the choppy playback. But after downloading the video from server and played back in VLC I didn't had such a choppy playback. It looked much better.
So I started a Test with JWPlayer and had the same choppy playback. Ok, makes sense because both player utilizing flash.
Same behaivour on another PC and Mac.
It's definitly flash related. Anyone knows if there a troubleshooting tools for flash?
Nobody has the same behavior?

Regards,
Andreas
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