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JoostH  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2020 11:40:12 PM(UTC)
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Am I the only one that regularly runs into the maximum of 4 NDI outputs? I host zoom webinars with 2-3 speakers that split up in breakout roots that each need two streams (full screen processed cam + cam + powerpoint). That would greatly benefit from a system with 6 NDI streams, on top of the Output signal. So, 8 NDI outputs would be great.

I realize this comes at the burden of extra CPU, GPU and network load. But my medium level Intel i7 laptop can deal with 4 NDI streams still decently and for my Ryzen 9 desktop it's simple. I did some experiments with OBS with 8 NDI streams and that worked fine.

Is there a reason why VMix is topped at 4 NDI streams (I have vMix 4k)
DWAM  
#2 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2020 12:20:37 AM(UTC)
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Check ZenVideo NDI Router here : http://www.zenvideo.co.uk/ndi.htm

It's an NDI software Matrix Router/Switcher, with configurations up to 20-in, 24-out, which can obviously be used with vMix and all your NDI sources.

Demo video :
JoostH  
#3 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2020 12:43:45 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: DWAM Go to Quoted Post
Check ZenVideo NDI Router here : http://www.zenvideo.co.uk/ndi.htm

It's an NDI software Matrix Router/Switcher, with configurations up to 20-in, 24-out, which can obviously be used with vMix and all your NDI sources.


Thanks. This sounds like an interesting piece of software for some jobs and I'll keep it in mind. It may save bandwidth. However, I don't think this solves my issue. I need to produce 6 simultaneous NDI source streams (on top of the output stream) from vMix. I need to get these NDI streams out of vMix in the first place, before I can start routing/switching them. Or do I miss something?
SportsNetUSA.net  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2020 5:10:23 AM(UTC)
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You should be able to access your vMix Inputs that are cameras, calls or audio and assign them to various I/O.

I have two vMix computers connected. I have the ZenVideo NDI as an 16 X 16 router. The mic Input on vMix computer #1 is assigned to A2 on the ZenVideo router, going to Output Bus A. On the vMix #2 computer, I can add it as NDI (RouterOut-A).

If the ZenVideo NDI won't work for you, perhaps a vMix + OBS solution will.
JoostH  
#5 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2020 5:37:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: SportsNetUSA.net Go to Quoted Post
You should be able to access your vMix Inputs that are cameras, calls or audio and assign them to various I/O.


Yes, I am aware of that. A nice feature but not of help for my case as vMix streams the raw inputs. I need to process the camera inputs first (color key, background, overlay, mix in powerpoints, etc) and then create and distribute the NDI streams for these.

Originally Posted by: SportsNetUSA.net Go to Quoted Post
I have two vMix computers connected. I have the ZenVideo NDI as an 16 X 16 router. The mic Input on vMix computer #1 is assigned to A2 on the ZenVideo router, going to Output Bus A. On the vMix #2 computer, I can add it as NDI (RouterOut-A).


I'll look again to ZenVideo NDI. Perhaps I'm not completely grasping its potential. Would this also work for two instances of vMix on the same (powerful) computer?

Originally Posted by: SportsNetUSA.net Go to Quoted Post
If the ZenVideo NDI won't work for you, perhaps a vMix + OBS solution will.

That also crossed my mind. However,frankly, that would negate the reason why switched over from OBS to vMix: getting rid of the tricks, tools and workarounds to make it do what I want it to do. I recall that OBS can create unlimited number of NDI streams (as long as hardware resources suffice). Then I could also return to OBS altogether.

So if only vMix would support more NDI output streams.....

But thanks, I'll give ZenVideo NDI another look.

DWAM  
#6 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2020 5:45:36 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
I need to get these NDI streams out of vMix in the first place, before I can start routing/switching them. Or do I miss something?

You mentioned: "I need full screen processed cam + cam + powerpoint"

Only "full screen cam processed cam" requires vMix as a source (and you have 4 available outputs).
Cams can be used as NDI sources from any computer on your network, just turn the option on in vMix settings.
Powerpoints are likely to be converted to NDI on another computer.

I truly believe ZenVideo NDI Router will do the job for you (when you'll figure out how to re-think your workflow).

Basically you just need to switch these NDI feeds. That's what a router does.

Alternative solutions include:
- setting your EXT 2, 3 and 4 to use Mix Inputs 2, 3 and 4 (to get sub-switching capability)
- use vMixUTC or Panel Builder to control dynamically your EXT 2, 3 and 4.
Here's an example video I did several years to demonstrate this:

JoostH  
#7 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2020 7:47:21 AM(UTC)
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Thanks all for the reply and support!

Perhaps I made myself unsuffiently clear. I need to create six NDI streams that each require some processing (color key, background, multiview). I have checked out ZenVideo NDI in more detail now and I still don't see a way to create these six NDI streams with a single instance of vMix plus ZenVideo NDI.

However, I do understand now how I could create this with 2 vMix computers or vMix + OBS and then route the streams via ZenVideo. I tried to use two vMix instances on one computer. Both instances run fine next to one another, but probably due to a naming clash I see only the NDI streams of the first instance. So I guess that does not work.

Back to my initial question: is there reason why VMix supports just 4 NDI output streams? It would make life so much easier...
mavik  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2021 7:36:03 AM(UTC)
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NDI is heavy on the network. I have made a video that covers the bandwidth consumption. This does not directly answer your question but you might want to rethink your approach.
JoostH  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, January 6, 2021 5:27:43 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
NDI is heavy on the network. I have made a video that covers the bandwidth consumption. This does not directly answer your question but you might want to rethink your approach.


Thanks for sharing these results. Indeed NDI can be a heavy burden to a network. However, in my case I don't see a problem. I have run several tests myself, using several webcams plus OBS or vMix. The typical bandwidth that I find is roughly 30 Mbps per NDI channel. This sufficient quality for me as this is for a Zoom webinar, where Zoom compresses the bandwidth much further.

In my use case, I run the setup on a local dedicated wired gigabit LAN, no other traffic. The NDI streams have a single receiver, so there is no double counting for multiple receivers of the same stream. That means that for 8 NDI channels, I end up with a bandwidth use of roughly 250 Mbps, which fits comfortably on the local LAN.

For heavier uses cases I could increase the bandwidth with a 10 Gbit switch (the server has 10 Gbit port) and/or removing double counts by using the ZEN NDI RTx (NDI Receiver-Transmitter) application. So from a bandwidth perspective, I have ample of headroom.
mavik  
#10 Posted : Saturday, January 9, 2021 3:45:45 AM(UTC)
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Glad to hear. Just wanted to make sure you pay attention, which you obviously did.
brin831  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2021 3:52:41 PM(UTC)
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What version of ndi tools are you using 4.1.2.? Or newer with matrix switcher from zen??

Are you able you use hx desktop capture ?

Thanks
JoostH  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2021 5:56:06 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: brin831 Go to Quoted Post
What version of ndi tools are you using 4.1.2.? Or newer with matrix switcher from zen??

Are you able you use hx desktop capture ?



I'm using the newest version of ndi tools, 4.6, I can use NDI Screen Capture HX and de newest version of the Zen router/switcher, v1.3.4.25. Why do you ask?

I've the feeling I miss something, that I do not fully comprehend how the router/switcher can help me.

The bottom line is that I want to create 7 outputs, one as the master zoom output, and 6 for the speakers: 3 speakers with 2 views each for the breakout rooms. The breakout rooms all run in parallel and the speakers must be able to switch their views at will. With all this parallellism, I can't control the video streams in breakout rooms anymore, so I want have those 6 channels available simultanously and to enable the speakers to switch between those themselves.

What I see as an alternative is to decentralize the production and set up each speaker PC with a fairly full-fledged installation of vMix HD and do much of configuration locally on the speakers PC. That would limit the number of output channels, at the cost of extra vMix licenses and a configuration that is much more difficult to maintain (e.g. many of the views I need to build and maintain both centrally and locally) and more prone to speakers errors. It's doable, but just a few extra NDI outputs would make life a lot easier. In OBS, that part is a piece of cake.


Still my question, do I miss something of the power of the router/switcher in this story?
brin831  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, January 12, 2021 10:34:23 PM(UTC)
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So our use is 5 zoom calls with 5 additional 1 v 1 callers we want to route in and out of 5 machines acting as hosts for the 5 zoom calls ... could be vmix callers, teams, zoom, other ... this is achieved pretty seamlessly with the router ... and 10 machines where their webcam input to zoom is ndi virtual webcam so you can assign output a,b,c etc to each computer then as you change matrix the callers see different inputs with audio following ... our own version of breakout rooms on scale and significantly more seamless than any breakout functions currently in web apps because we can use 1 more ndi source for hold slides, music, videos etc sent to all callers ... only possible with hx or a 10g network previously
JoostH  
#14 Posted : Sunday, January 17, 2021 4:18:43 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: brin831 Go to Quoted Post
So our use is 5 zoom calls with 5 additional 1 v 1 callers we want to route in and out of 5 machines acting as hosts for the 5 zoom calls ... could be vmix callers, teams, zoom, other ... this is achieved pretty seamlessly with the router ... and 10 machines where their webcam input to zoom is ndi virtual webcam so you can assign output a,b,c etc to each computer then as you change matrix the callers see different inputs with audio following ... our own version of breakout rooms on scale and significantly more seamless than any breakout functions currently in web apps because we can use 1 more ndi source for hold slides, music, videos etc sent to all callers ... only possible with hx or a 10g network previously


Thanks for the explanation. Your setup is more advanced than mine and I do see the value of the router here.
JoostH  
#15 Posted : Sunday, January 17, 2021 4:31:16 AM(UTC)
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I think I found a pretty elegant solution for my setup, not using the switch/router but the web controller.

  1. On the server, I create all views the speakers may need (max 3 speakers, no practical limitation on the number of views per speaker)
  2. Create a shortcut for each of those views that selects them for an output: output 2 for speaker A, output 3 for speaker B, output 4 for speaker C); make sure the shortcuts are visible
  3. enable NDI for outputs 2, 3 and 4, enable overlays>
  4. provide each of the speakers with a webcontroller; this enables them to switch themselves between views
  5. on their local PCs: feed their personal NDI stream into their Zoom session with NDI webcam input

Drawback of this approach: in the webcontroller the speakers have access to all streams, not just their own, which gives some room for mistakes.

I guess this works quite well, reducing the number of NDI output channels. Still, more NDI channels remain welcome. Because, for instance, this approach works for a maximum of three speakers. And with three speakers, I have to sacrifice multiview.
Paul_WCP  
#16 Posted : Monday, February 1, 2021 11:37:59 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: JoostH Go to Quoted Post
Thanks all for the reply and support!

Perhaps I made myself unsuffiently clear. I need to create six NDI streams that each require some processing (color key, background, multiview). I have checked out ZenVideo NDI in more detail now and I still don't see a way to create these six NDI streams with a single instance of vMix plus ZenVideo NDI.

However, I do understand now how I could create this with 2 vMix computers or vMix + OBS and then route the streams via ZenVideo. I tried to use two vMix instances on one computer. Both instances run fine next to one another, but probably due to a naming clash I see only the NDI streams of the first instance. So I guess that does not work.

Back to my initial question: is there reason why VMix supports just 4 NDI output streams? It would make life so much easier...


you could run your sources through casparcg and process there. Caspars In- and Outputs are only limited by network and your computer specs.
mavik  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2021 2:06:54 AM(UTC)
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Paul, that's well said. I have made a demo of what NDI could mean to your network. Please be aware.


JoostH  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2021 6:12:58 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Paul_WCP Go to Quoted Post

you could run your sources through casparcg and process there.


Thanks for the point to caspercg. I wasn't aware of it. I looked at and, yes, it might work. Bit frankly, I came from OBS and money on vMix because I got tired of all the tricks, loops and additional tools. Looking at the caspercg, it seems even more complex (though possible very powerful). Then I'd rather go back to OBS that has no hard limits for NDI outputs. As said above, I also found another, quite elegant solution in vMix.

Still, I do not really understand why vMix has only 4 NDI outputs.....



Babbit  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2021 6:26:38 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: JoostH Go to Quoted Post

Still, I do not really understand why vMix has only 4 NDI outputs.....

You're burying the lead a bit here. Additional NDI outputs in this case won't help without additional outputs (4 in the case of 4K and Pro).

That particular question comes up a lot. Martin has pointed out in previous Fun Time Live shows that it takes a fair amount of resources to keep those outputs synchronised, particularly when the GPU is being heavily utilized. I'm sure there's other reasons, but it's the one that I've heard most recently.

That said, there was a time when 2 outputs was the max all across the board, and things evolved enough to move to 4. Not sure if the 30XX will move the chains, but I presume reference systems and testing will have to happen first. And those cards are not particularly plentiful at the moment.
JoostH  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2021 5:36:57 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Babbit Go to Quoted Post

You're burying the lead a bit here. Additional NDI outputs in this case won't help without additional outputs (4 in the case of 4K and Pro).

Indeed, to me that is implied in the question.

Originally Posted by: Babbit Go to Quoted Post

That particular question comes up a lot. Martin has pointed out in previous Fun Time Live shows that it takes a fair amount of resources to keep those outputs synchronised, particularly when the GPU is being heavily utilized. I'm sure there's other reasons, but it's the one that I've heard most recently.


Of course, this would be a heavy load on the system in terms of CPU, GPU and bandwidth, probably too much for a midsegment system. But my Ryzen 9 3900X/ Geforce RTX 2060 holds up easily with 4 NDI outputs and I did some tests with OBS running 8 outputs.


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