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BETech  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2020 9:05:31 AM(UTC)
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Is streaming to YouTube at 25 frames per second progressive no longer available as of June 2020?
The Live stream on YouTube indicates 30 frames per second when the “Stats for Nerds” option is selected (right-click) on the YouTube video.
Also, when the DVR option in YouTube is selected to ON, the streamed content is also recorded at 30 frames per second.

The vMix Session Preset is set at 1080p25.
The External Outputs 1 & 2 are set at 1080p25.
All the vMix content is 1080p25.

The vMix Streaming Settings, “View Status” indicates 25 frames per second.

Looking back at hundreds of previous vMix streaming sessions prior to May 27th 2020, all the recordings indicate a frame rate of 25 fps.
Curious as to what has changed at YouTube in recent weeks.
There is no mention of other frame rates other than 30/60 fps in the YouTube Help file.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
BETech  
#2 Posted : Monday, July 20, 2020 5:05:40 PM(UTC)
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YouTube frame rate conversion from 25p to 30p and codec conversion from H.264 to VP8, with the loss of detail and additional quantization artifacts seems to be the new standard for those in PAL countries. I wonder if the current version of ffMPEG with the VP9 encoder is planned for future vMix versions.
DWAM  
#3 Posted : Monday, July 20, 2020 7:32:37 PM(UTC)
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I noticed that as well... Very unpleasant...
Don't know if this is permanent or just temporary but I don't like this at all
BETech  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, July 21, 2020 8:06:01 PM(UTC)
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Hi Guillaume. It would seem 25p is excluded from the VP9 specification. Only 30/50/60 frames.

With no GPU encoding support from AMD or nVidia at this time, and VP9 encoding being quite CPU intensive, I expect Martin would not consider this encoder for vMix in the short term.

Google/YouTube, the developer of the VP series of codecs, has a vested interest in using VP9.
No royalties and reduced file size storage at its server sites.

Though they would have invested large financial sums in FPGA development and implementing that hardware for each of their sites.
BETech  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:13:54 PM(UTC)
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One Solution:

h264ify is a Chrome/Firefox extension that makes YouTube stream H.264 videos instead of VP8/VP9 videos.

By default, YouTube streams VP8/VP9 encoded video. However, this can cause problems with less powerful machines because VP8/VP9 is not typically hardware accelerated.

By contrast, H.264 is commonly hardware accelerated by GPUs, which usually means smoother video playback and reduced CPU usage.

Note: You may need to enable GPU acceleration as well.

Chrome Version : https://chrome.google.co...hdccplidncghkekgioiakgal

FireFox Version : https://addons.mozilla.o...S/firefox/addon/h264ify/

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RichDanby  
#6 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2020 7:16:26 AM(UTC)
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For a couple of years Youtube has shown me 30p in stats for nerds when streaming 25p. Using live DVR and going frame by frame you could see with every 5th frame was doubled.

The post stream recordings have always shown as 25p though.

Just did a quick test and I'm also seeing 30p everywhere now :(

There is definitely VP9 25fps content on youtube so I don't think it is a codec limitation.
BETech  
#7 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2020 8:40:52 AM(UTC)
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RichDanby "There is definitely VP9 25fps content on youtube so I don't think it is a codec limitation."

You are correct, there is still content on YouTube with 25 FPS. We have streamed to YouTube everyday for the last four years at 1080p25 H.264 7mb/s, but ... on May 27, 2020 that all changed.
Our Live stream and the recordings thereafter became 1080p30 VP9.
The conversion is not from vMix, OBS or the Matrox Monarch HDX rather at YouTube.

All our previous recordings prior to May 27 2020 remain at 25 fps, though the YouTube playback defaults to VP9.
But we can Force playback to H.264 (AVC1) by using the FireFox/Chrome AddOn described above.
These recordings prior to May 27 2020, when downloaded from YouTube have remained as 1080p25 H.264.

The latest update of the YouTube live encoder settings, bitrates, and resolutions does not mention 25 fps.
https://support.google.c...ube/answer/2853702?hl=en

Since 25p, 50p or 50i are represented by approximately 70-75% of the world's population and countries, this is disturbing news.
Which begs the question, why is Google/Youtube now forcing overseas content providers and contributors to use the United States NTSC/ATSC frame rate 30/60 fps (29.97/59.94).

Which is perhaps why Martin in Australia (25p/50i) streams in 29.97p (30) fps with equipment that provides NTSC/ATSC frame rates, so the vMix is promoted at it's best quality, without frame rate conversion.

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If any member of the vMix community can provide a viable streaming solution to forcing 25 fps video on YouTube, please add you comments to this thread/post.
DWAM  
#8 Posted : Friday, July 24, 2020 5:01:31 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
Since 25p, 50p or 50i are represented by approximately 70-75% of the world's population and countries, this is disturbing news.
Which begs the question, why is Google/Youtube now forcing overseas content providers and contributors to use the United States NTSC/ATSC frame rate 30/60 fps (29.97/59.94).

Imperialism ? Wouldn't be the first time...
The other reason I can think of is mobiles where most of the times 25fps is not even a selectable option for shooting. They want to simplify for the masses and don't care if this bothers pros...
It sucks !
RichDanby  
#9 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2020 7:45:47 AM(UTC)
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The other part of it is, how many screens would show 25p even if they were sent it? Most mobile / pc screens are running at 60hz. Even something like an Amazon Fire TV stick defaults to 60hz and will use that when playing a 25fps youtube video.

I think we are all going to be dragged into 30p / 60p whether we like it or not.

Edit: Having said that, here is a stream from the weekend (not by me) that has posted as 50p
BETech  
#10 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2020 11:21:18 AM(UTC)
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RichDanby: "I think we are all going to be dragged into 30p / 60p whether we like it or not."

Richard, I agree, there is no longer a choice for streaming in this regard. Though we can still upload files at 1080p50, and they will be played back at 1080p50. Which I suspect the Alpha Live "Whilton Mill Cart Club" is an uploaded file after the live streaming session.

Here are the statistics for the 1080i50 to 1080p30 tests conducted recently. The quality of the live streamed video has been reduced considerably in the last two months. Note the YouTube transcoding bit-rate reduction.



Broadcast Live Stream 1080p30

Original broadcast 1080i50 10mb/s, DataVideo DA-70 real-time frame rate conversion to 1080p30

The Downloaded YouTube 1080p30 Files after the Streaming Session has completed.

MKV File VP9 Codec Overall BitRate 1.828 kb/s
MP4 File H.264 Codec Overall BitRate 3.447 kb/s



Broadcast Live Stream 1080i50

Original broadcast 1080i50 10mb/s, Google/YouTube frame rate conversion to 1080p30.

The Downloaded YouTube 1080p30 Files after the Streaming Session has completed.

MKV File VP9 Codec Overall BitRate 1.785 kb/s
MP4 File H.264 Codec Overall BitRate 3.312 kb/s


RichDanby  
#11 Posted : Thursday, July 30, 2020 5:18:24 PM(UTC)
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The Alpha Live video still has the 'Streamed live on 26 Jul 2020' text next to the view count so I don't think it is a later upload.

I'll do some more testing and see if I can find any way to avoid 30p
mavik  
#12 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2020 9:51:00 PM(UTC)
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Very interesting. Please keep posting your findings.
RichDanby  
#13 Posted : Friday, July 31, 2020 10:04:29 PM(UTC)
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Well I think I tried every combination yesterday of 25p & 50p vmix project with auto generated stream key, saved variable key, saved 1080p key, saved 1080p key with 60fps enabled and saved variable key with the 60fps option set.

None of them produced a 25p or 50p stream or VOD.
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