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Tone13  
#1 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 9:38:40 AM(UTC)
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The more I use vMix call, the more let down I am each day.
In theory, I love the way vMix call works and my show is based around 8 vMix calls. It's amazing what can be achieved, having presenters, guests and producers all on vMix calls and putting a show together.
The issue I have is in the call quality. I am on a 150Mbps down / 60Mbps Up connection and my callers have 50/30Mbps connection at least
Yesterday, even doing a small stripped back show using just four vMix calls, the call from the UK (I am in Australia) was really poor. I know it has a long path to travel but seeing others use Zoom across the same distance, i notice how much better the zoom calls seem to be.
Doesn't zoom use the same protocol as vMix Call? Is there anything that can be done by vMix to improve things?
I love vMix Call as it's such a powerful tool right in vmix itself so would rather not have to use external options but producers are expecting Zoom quality as least these days and vMix Call is falling short.
ask  
#2 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 10:40:30 AM(UTC)
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Perhaps a bit of reading here might help: https://webrtc.org/ and https://webrtc.github.io/webrtc-org/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebRTC

"Doesn't zoom use the same protocol as vMix Call?" Probably not....gut feel is no!

A quick way to benchmark the quality you can get is to establish a call between two PC's on your LAN. This will give you an indication of what webRTC is capable of. Now when you have a call to an external location, what you will see is how it adjusts to the prevailing network conditions as it passses through ISP's, the cloud and so on.

Even though a speed test at either end indicates plenty of bandwith it doesn't show where throttling or QOS has been applied in any part of the chain.
KnKproductions  
#3 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 12:37:41 PM(UTC)
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Do a full test and run 8 separate guests at the same time in the same studio environment. Be sure to stream it to all the places you stream it to, and if you record do that as well. A 100% live test.

Once that is going, check your CPU usage in the windows task manager. If it's maxed out, you need a new computer that has a state-of-the-art processor and that will solve all your problems :)

Also if your guests are using old and slow computers, they won't be able to send a good feed regardless of their internet connection.
Tone13  
#4 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 4:04:08 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: KnKproductions Go to Quoted Post
Do a full test and run 8 separate guests at the same time in the same studio environment. Be sure to stream it to all the places you stream it to, and if you record do that as well. A 100% live test.

Once that is going, check your CPU usage in the windows task manager. If it's maxed out, you need a new computer that has a state-of-the-art processor and that will solve all your problems :)

Also if your guests are using old and slow computers, they won't be able to send a good feed regardless of their internet connection.


The computer is not maxing out. As I mentioned, even doing a stripped back show with only four calls the quality was pretty poor and we were pre recording this show so no streaming was happening at the time.

My guests connect using current model, i5 Microsoft Surface Pro’s or newish ipads.

I know that many external factors are at play when using VMix call but it just seems that zoom gets consistently better results in similar situations.
admin  
#5 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 4:28:18 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

The latest vMix now offers a lot of control over the call quality, so you can adjust these to get better results.
But first we would need to get a better understanding of what is meant by low quality?
Is it frame rate, resolution, something else? Knowing exactly where you are seeing the drop in quality is key to working out how to improve it.

In the case of comparison with Zoom, note that they limit to 360p at the moment, so for a fair comparison make sure
the return video quality you are sending the caller in vMix is the same.

Also, Zoom uses servers to allow routing only one call at full quality at any time, so it is not fair compare 4x vMix Call inputs with 1x Zoom as network conditions
will dictate vMix needs to reduce bandwidth of those callers all things being equal.

Finally, you can set a fixed bandwidth for the guest from the right click menu on the call under Advanced Settings, though note that if bandwidth is not up to task
the browser may be forced to reduce bandwidth regardless.

Some further diagnostics info here that might be helpful:
https://www.vmix.com/kno...on-issues-with-vmix-call

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
thanks 1 user thanked admin for this useful post.
eduardocfs on 6/13/2020(UTC)
Tone13  
#6 Posted : Friday, June 12, 2020 10:11:34 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

The latest vMix now offers a lot of control over the call quality, so you can adjust these to get better results.
But first we would need to get a better understanding of what is meant by low quality?
Is it frame rate, resolution, something else? Knowing exactly where you are seeing the drop in quality is key to working out how to improve it.

In the case of comparison with Zoom, note that they limit to 360p at the moment, so for a fair comparison make sure
the return video quality you are sending the caller in vMix is the same.

Also, Zoom uses servers to allow routing only one call at full quality at any time, so it is not fair compare 4x vMix Call inputs with 1x Zoom as network conditions
will dictate vMix needs to reduce bandwidth of those callers all things being equal.

Finally, you can set a fixed bandwidth for the guest from the right click menu on the call under Advanced Settings, though note that if bandwidth is not up to task
the browser may be forced to reduce bandwidth regardless.

Some further diagnostics info here that might be helpful:
https://www.vmix.com/kno...on-issues-with-vmix-call

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Martin
vMix


Thanks for the reply Martin,

In terms of ‘quality’, what I experience is the frame rate dropping to 1- 10 fps rather than compression artifacting or blurriness due to low data rates. Images seem to stay sharpish, but just freeze for over a second fairly often.

I set the return feed to each presenter/ guest to 800kbps as this seems to be the lowest quality I can get away with while presenters can still read the graphics on our output. Any lower, and the text turns to mush and they say they can’t read it.
I have played around with the Advanced settings and switching it from Auto to 2000kbps but neither seemed to make much difference. I’ll try a few in between tomorrow.

I didn’t know Zoom maxes out at 360p! Maybe I do need to lower my incoming feeds in the Advanced settings to 800kbs or so and see how that goes but I assumed that the ‘Auto’ setting should take care of things like that and adjust depending on available bandwidth. It seems to me that rather than adjusting the compression or data rate, it just drops the frames .

All in all, I should say that you have done an amazing job with VMix overall. I’ve been in broadcast TV for twenty years and even now, it’s amazing what VMix is capable of.

Cheers.
Vuurmannetje  
#7 Posted : Saturday, June 13, 2020 1:28:21 AM(UTC)
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Hi Tone13,

One of my clients uses Vmixcall daily for hours on end for a virtual production, and weve had your issue arise sometimes as well.
Basically, we notice that quality varies a lot per user. Things that clearly affect it:

- Provider QoS/throttling
Happens more often with US providers, but choppy image and artifacts in sound happen with these. Even more so with low latency enabled. 50/50 on our US callers if their ISP throtthles.
These guests use zoom for other shows too, where this issue arises less. We've found that VPN services mitigate a lot of this issue.

- Browser issues
If a user has a lot of tabs open this affects Vmixcall performance. Ask them to close down to the necessary tabs or use a separate laptop for notes
This issue extends to computer resources. If theyre running a lot of stuff this will affect the browser responsiveness and Vmixcall as a result.

Cheers
mjgraves  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, June 17, 2020 9:04:12 AM(UTC)
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I can't help but answer the question, "Does Zoom use WebRTC?"

Yes. And No.

They use a lot of the underlying fundamentals, but they implement it in an installable client application. That's one of the things that WebRTC set out to eliminate.

Zoom does this because they have some secret sauce of their own and they have, they feel, a unique focus on making the process easy for clients. They're not wrong about making things easy. In recent days some of their strategy, like glossing over security, has come back to bite them.

Zoom does have a web client that can be used to join a conference without having the application installed. They don;'t make it especially easy to find this way of connecting. They're prefer people to install the client.

The folks at WebRTC Hack have a great overview of how even the web client isn't normal WebRTC.

https://webrtchacks.com/zoom-avoids-using-webrtc/

I completely get this. The issue that I have observed is the browser like to react very quickly to degrading network conditions. Very slowly to improved network conditions.
grantcoll  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, June 30, 2020 9:10:56 PM(UTC)
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Hi Tone13,

I think you have covered this in your initial statement about 50/30, but just thought to mention that some users don't think about other things on their internet and about up speed. They may have good downspeed, but don't think about needing the upspeed to get their footage up to you. In NZ there is still a lot of ADSL which has slow upspeed by design. I am not sure about other countries, but it is worth checking.

Another thing users don't think about is they can tend to watch the show on another computer, and not think about how they are using their own bandwidth. A mistake I have made in the past is not telling callers to turn everything else off on their internet before starting.
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