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rldsK  
#41 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2020 6:56:42 AM(UTC)
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Very much +1. I also created a forum account just to post this.

I'm having a difficult time understanding why it's difficult to see the need for this-- I would explain why it is such a good feature request, but I think that has already been relatively sufficiently covered, especially since there is not a technical limitation keeping it from happening.
mtone  
#42 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2020 12:30:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: stevespaw Go to Quoted Post
admin wrote:
Also for what its worth, the audio engine in vMix is built 100% from the ground up. We don't use APIs such as DirectSound for audio processing, we only use those APIs to
gain access to the audio itself, such as the ASIO SDK for audio interfaces.



I am very impressed with it also. It is the ONLY tool that I have used that can mix audio from ASIO and WDM sources.


there is a reason why other programs dont permit this.. It is because audio hardware by default has no word clock to lock the timing between the devices.. if you run two separate digital devices without syncing with something like BNC or ADAT clock they can/will drift in their timing.. Vmix seems to pay no attention to this and i suspect its the cause of problems in hit and miss fashion depending on users setup.. Perhaps im missing something, at the very least it would be nice to hear feedback on how Vmix manages this when no other audio software does..
mtone  
#43 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2020 12:57:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: StonewolfActual Go to Quoted Post


I know you have your reasons for disregarding the user base on this, but I would also offer look at the user responses... not one has said, no this is a bad idea or thats not how they do it. The only responses are saying 'yes, I need this, this is whats missing.'....maybe its a good idea to take the hint?


To be fair its easy for people to +1 to requests on forums because there is no cost, actually developing the software has large investment and you need to prioritise the time.. Also when people dont need a feature that has been requested they dont -1, they just move on to whatever interests them so its debatable how good a gauge it is..

if you had a system where every forum member was allowed say only three +1 votes and three -1 votes for a fixed period.. it would probably be more accurate way of finding consensus..
livestreaming  
#44 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2020 6:15:12 PM(UTC)
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+1
robert5521  
#45 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2020 5:44:04 PM(UTC)
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We definitively need PFL on audio inputs.
rldsK  
#46 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2020 7:07:24 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mtone Go to Quoted Post


To be fair its easy for people to +1 to requests on forums because there is no cost, actually developing the software has large investment and you need to prioritise the time..


As an enterprise software developer, I appreciate the fact that someone else recognizes this. Updates and features aren't free.

With that said, however, user feedback should be one of the largest (if not the largest) guiding factor as to which features and updates hit the top of the priority list. This is clearly one of the more popular requests out there, and its implementation is almost already completed, assuming the programming is as I would expect it to be. (the SOLO feature exists, it just needs a toggle switch that applies some math to emulate a PFL level)

Obviously I say the following in jest, but here's a quick sample of how we can implement this feature:
Code:
/** INTERFACE AudioEngine */
public void startHeadphoneStream(Input input);
public void startHeadphoneStream(Input input, int outputVolume);

/** CLASS AudioEngineImpl */
public void startHeadphoneStream(input) {
   // do the things (set the `output level to Windows = input.getGain()`)
}

public void startHeadphoneStream(Input input, int outputVolume) {
   // do the things, (set the `output level to Windows = outputVolume`)
}


/** CLASS MixerControlListeners */
protected void onSolo(Input input) {
   if (GLOBALSETTING["isPflActive"]) {
      audioEngine.startHeadphoneStream(input, input.getGain() + (100 - input.getGain());  
   } else {
      audioEngine.startheadphoneStream(input);
   }
}


The frustrating thing here isn't that they don't have have development time-- the frustrating thing is that this feature is highly requested (and pretty critical) (and, based on Martin's comments, pretty simple), and they are seemingly refusing to acknowledge the feedback.
admin  
#47 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2020 7:30:46 PM(UTC)
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You can't do that as it would impact the volume of all buses, including Master everytime Solo is pressed.
To do that you could just set a shortcut to set Volume to 100% on button down, and 0% again on button up, but
that is not what is wanted here.

If this were an easy to add option, it would have been added ages ago, even if I have tried my best to explain how this type of workflow is really problematic
for streaming operators in the long run....

But in any case, this would require fundamental changes to the entire audio pipeline to support, and we aren't going to risk audio bugs for a feature
that a very small minority of users need at this time.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
thanks 2 users thanked admin for this useful post.
elvis55 on 12/23/2020(UTC), eduardocfs on 12/24/2020(UTC)
Twistmedia  
#48 Posted : Monday, December 28, 2020 9:58:10 AM(UTC)
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+1 PFL is a basic fundamental function of any decent audio mixer.
streaming---pro  
#49 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2021 3:22:15 AM(UTC)
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A big +1 for PFL listening!


The AFL listening function in VMIX is not usable at all in our workflow!

We do a lot of virtual events where up to 8 remote guests are in the show. We need to talk to these guests when they are off-air. To do this we have a shortcut on our streamdeck that toggles the specific caller channel to solo and another button to swicth the audio source of this caller to the talkback bus and back to the program bus.

To do this we have to raise the faider to be able to hear the guest off-air in our headphones which is akward and confusing to our audio guy. Most of our remote guests have some background noise in their feed. Because of that you cannot simply unmute the channel as this would result in a bad jumping audio quality. you need to slowly raise the fader to get good sounding audio in the program feed.
For that reason we have all faders of all guests down to zero before they go live. And in the moment they go live the audio guy raises the fader. In addition to a better sounding audio he always has a good overview of what is live at the current moment.

But with this workflow it is not possible to do an off-air talk to a guest because we can't hear them (fader is down).

I'm working in the production industry and must say that the current approach of VMIX is not usable in a professional production at all.

So my suggestion would be to put a checkbox in the option settings of VMIX that defines how SOLO is handeld. AFL (as it is) - chekcbox is checked. PFL (Pre Fader Listening) box is unchecked and we can hear the channel 100% in our headphones regardless of the fader position. That shouldn't be much of a problem to implement this.

And believe me, there is a huge amount of users that need this feature. I know a collegue that did a big film-award show here in Germany that was also broadcasted on national TV where all nominated celebrity-guests were brought in via 4 VMIX machines. It worked very well beside the audio mixing where he complained much about the missing output busses and in particular of a missing PFL function.

Why not make this a global option in the audio settings?


Cheers

pro.
mtone  
#50 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2021 12:33:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
You can't do that as it would impact the volume of all buses, including Master everytime Solo is pressed.
To do that you could just set a shortcut to set Volume to 100% on button down, and 0% again on button up, but
that is not what is wanted here.

If this were an easy to add option, it would have been added ages ago, even if I have tried my best to explain how this type of workflow is really problematic
for streaming operators in the long run....

But in any case, this would require fundamental changes to the entire audio pipeline to support, and we aren't going to risk audio bugs for a feature
that a very small minority of users need at this time.

Regards,

Martin
vMix



PFL shouldnt need to change volumes or have any connection to solo.. it just needs to be a VU display of input levels before the Fader/EQ have made changes.. im not a programmer so forgive me if this idea is naive but why cant you just have a block of code that detects the level immediately after receiving data from the audio driver and before any other processing ? then save the output of that code in a variable and when somebody presses a PFL button change the VU meters to show the data from that variable rather than the normal output of the channel after Fader/EQ/FX etc ?

PFL in this instance would just be an analysis of the input level immediately after the driver.. the gain itself would still be manually adjusted on the audio interface.. also i cant see any reason why it couldnt have its own button ? it doesnt need to combine with solo..





EDIT: ahhh i am forgetting people actually like to hear the PFL source solo'ed also ? it is pre fader LISTEN afterall.. i personally never use it like that i just look at VUs with a PFL engaged and set input gain and then return to the mix.. PFL to me has subconsciously become pre fader "level"..

in order to hear the source solo'ed before Fader/FX/EQ that would change the design of things i guess.. also i just realised vmix call audio sources might make this different again to deal with.. i was just assuming the source is from an audio interface etc..
blackburst  
#51 Posted : Monday, January 25, 2021 3:46:08 PM(UTC)
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+1
Also the ability to have bus assignments go out pre-fade. In the virtual event world we need the ability to just route channels prefade down call lines, to in-room foldback speakers etc. I keep having to duplicate audio inputs so that I can NOT send a copy to master and keep the fader up.
mtone  
#52 Posted : Tuesday, January 26, 2021 3:36:32 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: blackburst Go to Quoted Post
+1
In the virtual event world we need the ability to just route channels prefade down call lines, to in-room foldback speakers etc.


wouldnt that be a pre fader AUX send more than a PFL feature ? that would be beneficial also..

thensley  
#53 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2021 7:22:32 AM(UTC)
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I turn on NDI Audio in Output Settings and create a new input for each input I need prefade audio for. I can route these prefader inputs where I want and adjust levels without adjusting my main level. I also use this for program audio returns so I can adjust the levels without affecting my main mix.
BETech  
#54 Posted : Thursday, March 4, 2021 9:38:43 PM(UTC)
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Three years on .... Many posts & requests. vMix 24 about to be released and still no PFL (pre-fade listen) facility. Extraordinary.

Best explanation & well written follows:

https://www.soundonsound...t-do-solo-pfl-and-afl-do

Typical Audio Mixer Signal Flow:

UserPostedImage
marcusp  
#55 Posted : Thursday, March 4, 2021 9:55:41 PM(UTC)
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I don't know what the process is for getting a feature request reconsidered. Martin was defiant a few years ago because he didn't personally understand this industry standard, but maybe he could be persuaded now?
marcusp  
#56 Posted : Thursday, March 4, 2021 11:55:08 PM(UTC)
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@BETech I see you've updated your post with explanations of what PFL is. That isn't the problem though.

Martin understands what PFL is, he just doesn't understand why people would need it. He doesn't understand that people from broadcast or sound mixing backgrounds keep all faders closed until a source goes live. In his eyes people should leave all faders open all of the time and unmute/mute to put them live (which is why he thinks Solo is sufficient for previewing). Meanwhile, that approach is unthinkable to broadcasters.
BETech  
#57 Posted : Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:28:09 AM(UTC)
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Martin. Seeking to understand the audio signal flow in vMix. Below is a guess as to how it maybe. Can you clarify this
by using the ordered numbers as shown below.

Items in Blue indicate Audio Settings
Items in Red indicate Input Mixer
Items in Green indicate Feature Request

01. INPUT
02. SETTINGS PRE Level Meters
03. SETTINGS CHANNEL (All or Separate Mono)
04. SETTINGS GAIN (0db - 24db)
05. SETTINGS AUTOMATIC GAIN CONTROL (On/Off)
06. SETTINGS DELAY (-1000ms - +20000ms)
07. SETTINGS VST Plugins
08. SETTINGS EQ (10 Band Equalization)
09. SETTINGS COMPESSOR
10. SETTINGS NOISE GATE
11. SETTINGS CHANNEL MIXER

-- INPUT PFL ON/OFF (Pre-Fader Listen)
-- INPUT PFL Level Meters (using existing Input Level Meters)

12. INPUT CHANNEL FADER (All or Separate Mono)
13. INPUT BALANCE (Left/Right)

14. SETTINGS POST Level Meters
15. INPUT Level Meters
16. INPUT SOLO (Post Fader)
17. INPUT CHANNEL ON/OFF (Mute)

18. SETTINGS CHANNEL MATRIX (Master, Headphones, A - G in L/R channels)
19. OUTPUT/S (As User assigned per CH Matrix)

To facilitate the Pre-Fade Listen feature request in vMix 24, can you provide an option in the Settings/Audio menu, to select either SOLO
or PFL as the preferred method to cue/preview audio pre-fader (with the fader closed) across all input channels within vMix.

Also provide pre-fader level meters that monitor the audio level at the point prior to the Input fader using the existing Input level meters.

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xztraz  
#58 Posted : Wednesday, March 10, 2021 6:04:03 AM(UTC)
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it's weird that a program that is made to be as flexible as possible can't have very basic PFL that almost every audio engineer is used to have.

also gain/att. should be first in the chain.

There are many things in vmix that's clearly made from a programmers perspective instead of a producer/audio engineer.

Also PFL button should be red when active.



Now i have to route most audio to an external mixer to have pfl.

In a quality broadcast you always check the audio before going on air with it. there could be all sorts of problems on incoming audio that you want to know before everyone else also hears it.


So pleeease. give me a reason to throw out the external mixer :)
thanks 4 users thanked xztraz for this useful post.
BETech on 3/10/2021(UTC), pingu2k on 3/15/2021(UTC), marcusp on 3/21/2021(UTC), robert5521 on 4/6/2021(UTC)
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