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BETech  
#21 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 9:05:35 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Martin for your insight and the reasoning behind the method used for audio in vMix. It does make sense for those Users operating vMix sound using only the computer interface. Is there a way to include the option in the application Settings/Audio menu to facilitate PFL using DirectSound or whatever mechanism you have implemented, to split the signal that drives the vertical audio meter ‘PRE’ in the Audio Settings dialogue.

Further, I investigated this and found that the following features are POST Fader: Channel Balance, Channel Gain, Delay, EQ, Compressor, Noise Gate, Channel Mixer and the POST fader vertical audio meter. The actual Channel Fader control is at the input for the audio channel, not at or near the output of the audio channel. Is this correct? If so, then this is a reversal of functionality for any audio mixers, either software or hardware based, and makes any feature request for PFL (Pre Fade Listen) moot/unwarranted.

Is there a limitation in .Net that does not permit the functions within the vMix Audio Settings dialogue (Gain/EQ/Compressor/Gate/Channel Mixer) to be placed before the Channel Fader, thus permitting the PFL request to be considered?

Quote Admin: “The fader in vMix acts as both a gain and a fader in the traditional mixer sense ...” Rather, the fader in vMix acts as an attenuator. The Gain control for the channel resides in the Audio Settings/General dialogue. So Gain is applied after the channel fader. Is this correct?

Quote Admin: “ ... without them needing to learn the more complex analogue mixer workflow required by PFL.” PFL is not complex, one button, one function, to preview sound and adjust all the sound parameters/effects, no matter the current position of Fader, the status of the Channel Mute or the channel assignment to outputs M-A-B.

As I have spoken with several SAE audio directors locally regarding this post, no-one uses Mute to switch audio channels. It’s software with an audio mixer to mix audio, and PFL is their best friend. When Live, always check the next event in PFL and check again ....

Please free to comment if these observations are incorrect. A diagram of the audio signal path through vMix would be of great benefit to all, so we can better understand the implementation of sound in vMix. Including the Bus assignments, vMix Call and IFB. The vMix Audio reference in the Help HTML.

Regards,
Ross.

stevespaw  
#22 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 12:00:34 PM(UTC)
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My PFL script for the bottom below the faders on xtouch-compact.
with activator on the solo light.

'PFL Bus A - toggle assuming Audio on and Solo off to start on an Input labeled Bus A
Function=Audio&Input=Bus A
Function=Solo&Input=Bus A

Works but, starting states are critical. The operator will have to know how this is working, in case there is an errant mouse click.


Steve

PS
Since we don't have DCA's I use A and B for a couple of sub mixes.
admin  
#23 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 1:39:44 PM(UTC)
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BETech,

All effects are pre-fader. In the audio meter, the sequence is Pre-Meter, Effects, Channel Fader, Post-Meter.

I have observed many live production setups over the years where an audio console was used, and all used Mute and had the channel faders
always up during the entire show. This was also the case back when I did sound mixing at my church, even when we had professional
sound engineers come by to teach the volunteers the same setup was used also.

So it appears there are two different worlds out there, with vMix modelling closest to the music production world since that appears
to be what are most familiar with.

Regards,

Martin
vMix


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stigaard on 5/17/2020(UTC)
admin  
#24 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 1:43:43 PM(UTC)
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Also for what its worth, the audio engine in vMix is built 100% from the ground up. We don't use APIs such as DirectSound for audio processing, we only use those APIs to
gain access to the audio itself, such as the ASIO SDK for audio interfaces.

This means we have complete flexibility to adjust the audio however is needed, so there isn't any technical limitations at play here. This is a discussion on what is the easiest approach for the majority of users.
stevespaw  
#25 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 1:58:19 PM(UTC)
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As I have learned in the last several years, yes, they are 2 different worlds.

I came from a music background and have used and owned many audio consoles. I use an X32 every week at our church for worship. I know the console inside and out.

But I get to the office where we have many x32's that we have deployed for live sports and the setup the A1's have is like foreign world, I can't figure out how to fade up some music sometimes! They live in a world where PFLed sources are on most of the time and DCAed groups control almost the whole console. The sound in the audio booth of a truck is almost NEVER what you are hearing on air. Program Audio is like a sixth sense to these guys.

Add on top of all of this - intercom and routing of all your sources there.

These folks would be bored mixing a band. :-)


Steve
stevespaw  
#26 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:04:11 PM(UTC)
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admin wrote:
Also for what its worth, the audio engine in vMix is built 100% from the ground up. We don't use APIs such as DirectSound for audio processing, we only use those APIs to
gain access to the audio itself, such as the ASIO SDK for audio interfaces.



I am very impressed with it also. It is the ONLY tool that I have used that can mix audio from ASIO and WDM sources. If it had the ability to use 1. VST plugins and 2. have more output buses and 3. DCA's, It could complete with many audio consoles out there. Just as a software audio console.

Thanks Martin,
Steve
admin  
#27 Posted : Wednesday, November 1, 2017 2:16:00 PM(UTC)
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stevespaw wrote:
As I have learned in the last several years, yes, they are 2 different worlds.


Yes, it does seem that way. I did some research just to make sure I wasn't going crazy, and many of the audio consoles I have used and observed over the years
set AFL as the default operation for Solo. For example the Presonus StudioLive digital console, that has been used for the Teradek Live Show the past few years has this as the default.

Of course, these consoles also have a toggle to turn on PFL mode, but they also have a true analog gain control to set the levels which is key.
Such a control doesn't exist in the digital world and trying to emulate one would be troublesome at best, especially if audio is coming in distorted already.

Thanks everybody for your input, it has been an interesting discussion. As a reward for those that have read this far, we will be announcing a big new
audio feature in the next few weeks. It isn't a PFL button, but I think pro audio users will fine it extremely useful!

Regards,

Martin
vMix



xztraz  
#28 Posted : Wednesday, October 9, 2019 10:07:07 PM(UTC)
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gain first in the chain and pfl is very useful.

Say you have a couple of environmental microphones. and just want a tiny bit of sound from them in the mix.
set gain so when the fader is all the way up (or at -0db on a normal mixer) the sound is set at a good low level.

easy to find back to instead of trying to remember where the fader where when the mix was good.



pfl. is great to check signal sources before you take them on air. or want to listen to some on air,turned down source in full volume temporary to isolate problems or tune stuff.

a global settings button for pre/post fader solo would be great. also you should be able to pfl several sources at once.

i work in pfl and have to resort to an external hw mixer so far.
TonySingh  
#29 Posted : Tuesday, April 28, 2020 11:42:10 AM(UTC)
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Hi All
Has there been a resolution to this?

I also would like to see a PFL function in addition to a Solo function.

With my workflow, I have multiple audio sources and would like to be able to hear a specific input in my headphones alone without having to bring up that input fader after I have hit the solo button. This way, I won't ever have to worry about making the mistake of taking that source to air by accident.

If my audio mixer is external, this wouldn't be a problem since I'd only send 2 channels of audio to Vmix from my mixer and wouldn't have to worry about mixing within Vmix.

I realize its a different workflow, and I have seen it done both ways.

Thanks
Tony
TheBB  
#30 Posted : Saturday, May 16, 2020 7:57:36 AM(UTC)
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Hello to you all - new to Vmix and the group. I posted this over at another thread as well:

I think us audio people need to put this in video terms. PFL is the preview screen of audio. Would you punch a show from a video standpoint if you didn't know what was in preview?

We need PFL - Pre Fader Listen
What we have now is AFL - After Fader Listen

A show is almost impossible to mix without PFL and I now understand why many people using Vmix are using external consoles and receiving audio via Dante or other protocol then sending the full mix to Vmix. It's simply to have PFL.

We (audio engineers) need to PFL a microphone before someone speaks. For example - an executive is running late to a web cast. There's another presenter speaking while he's getting in his seat. I need to PFL the new presenter (fader down, mute button on) to make sure his mic is ok, do a level test with him etc.

I hope this makes sense to any administrator that chimes in.

Please help!

Brian
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BETech on 3/4/2021(UTC)
pingu2k  
#31 Posted : Sunday, May 17, 2020 3:20:29 AM(UTC)
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+1
marcusp  
#32 Posted : Friday, June 19, 2020 12:41:43 AM(UTC)
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I'm amazed this thread is 3 years old, and vMix still doesn't have PFL. It would seem that Martin rejected people's request for PFL back then, simply because he only wanted to cater for the "majority of users". Does that mean that professional broadcasters aren't welcome here?

I've worked in radio for 27 years - I would never dream of putting an audio source to air by means of a mute button (not least because a radio desk doesn't have mute buttons, which gives a massive clue in itself). Smooth audio transitions are all about the faders. If there's the slightest hint of background noise on a mic, you can't put it live by unmuting - the background noise needs to be faded in, and faded back out.

In my vMix broadcasts to date, the lack of PFL has stopped me communicating with the off-air presenter. We've had to use instant messaging instead. There's no way I'm going to fade them down, then mute, then solo, then fade them up (followed by the same steps in reverse) just to hear what they're saying. An open fader means they're live, a closed fader means they're not, and I need 100% confidence in that.

Ultimately, I don't understand why vMix wouldn't implement a broadcast industry standard, using the argument that they only want to cater for the majority. Firstly, who's done that survey, to identify the majority demographic? Secondly, vMix is crammed full of obscure settings for niche purposes - how on earth did they all pass the test of benefiting the majority of users, if PFL doesn't?
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BETech on 3/4/2021(UTC)
dec33  
#33 Posted : Tuesday, August 25, 2020 2:28:22 AM(UTC)
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+1
eventsmadelive  
#34 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2020 5:26:12 PM(UTC)
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+1 as well.
Created a forum account to post this.
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rldsK on 12/22/2020(UTC)
mavik  
#35 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2020 5:59:09 PM(UTC)
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+1
mtone  
#36 Posted : Tuesday, September 22, 2020 8:44:07 PM(UTC)
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the problem with PFL (in the traditional sense) is its used to set input gain in conjunction with VU meters but you arent going to get that control in vmix because ASIO inputs are post gain.. you would still need to go back to your audio interface software or use the gain knobs on the device itself..

having said that i still think its a good idea and should be there.. its a standardised workflow and you should still be able to make EQ and FX changes inside the software via PFL.. also it would easy to hit PFL in vmix and adjust gain on the audio interface while watching VU's in vmix and monitoring through headphones..

+1
pawel.otako  
#37 Posted : Wednesday, September 23, 2020 6:34:25 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post


In a traditional audio mixer a sound engineer will commonly use the gain to set the audio level, keeping the fader at 0.


I have never in my life seen someone manage gains like that. You set the gain with fader down to proper level using meter and then ride the fader to set desired volume.

The audio meters should also be PRE-FADER

+1

mtone  
#38 Posted : Wednesday, September 23, 2020 11:52:23 AM(UTC)
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agreed... using input gain for volume control is bad idea.. there are drawbacks with no real benefits.
Tone13  
#39 Posted : Monday, December 7, 2020 7:13:34 AM(UTC)
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+1

The option of having Solo be Pre Fader would be hugely welcome. Not sure why it still hasn't been implemented?!

Or, just add a PFL button.....
StonewolfActual  
#40 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2020 6:01:05 AM(UTC)
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Hey there,

Admin, while I respect what you say throughout this thread, you seem to be missing a solid point, your users feel this is a missing feature.

I have to +1 This thread as well because it has actually caused me great stress not having PFL because we do some pretty complex mixing with Audio for hybrid/live/streamed events.

You say that you are modeling audio after industry standards, and I can assure you, if you using houses of worship as a model, you are not looking at widely used audio standards at all. (I am not doggin on worship, the reality is though there is ahuge spectrum of user ability in worship and things aren't always done 'right' when compared to industry standards.)

I know you have your reasons for disregarding the user base on this, but I would also offer look at the user responses... not one has said, no this is a bad idea or thats not how they do it. The only responses are saying 'yes, I need this, this is whats missing.'....maybe its a good idea to take the hint?

I love vMix and am a big fan, but I really think this is a specific thing you are missing the mark on.
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