logo

Live Production Software Forums


Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

2 Pages12>
Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
bentzmi  
#1 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 11:22:34 AM(UTC)
bentzmi

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/22/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Chicago

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Quick question for you NDI gurus out there:

What's the cheapest mini PC that could convert an NDI stream to HDMI?


Here's the context:

I'm the A/V manager at my church and we're looking to upgrade our video distribution in the near future. Right now we're running composite video to oldschool Tube TVs over RG6 (with a few line amps here and there). Yes, it's hideous.

We already have Ethernet distributed throughout the church and I was thinking of feeding an NDI stream over a dedicated portion of the network to each TV on the campus. However, I can't seem to find a cost-effective way to convert NDI to HDMI.

I'm aware of the presale BirdDog option, but at $1k per box that's a bit steep for video distribution:
http://www.bird-dog.tv/
It's also not available yet.

Have any of you guys looked into connecting a miniPC to the back of a TV and then just running a simple NDI viewer?

Looks Vmix BasicHD would be $60 for the software. I see miniPCs anywhere from $100 to $500. This would be a lot cheaper than the BirdDog option.

Does Vmix require the full "supported hardware specs" to do a simple NDI viewer?
http://www.vmix.com/soft.../supported-hardware.aspx

It looks like the Intel Atom processors are a bit cheaper, but they're only 1.6GHz.

Here are a few computers I'm looking at:
http://www.cappuccinopc....ernet-2xHdmi_mini-pc.asp
https://www.amazon.com/G...ini%2Bpc%2Bbrix&th=1


Any thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
DWAM  
#2 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 12:14:19 PM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
Hi

first you have to understand that NDI is not a distribution oriented technology. Choosing NDI for feeding several TV on a network is not a good choice.

For 3 (main) reasons:

- it requires huge amount of bandwidth
- it requires quite high spec devices to decode
- it requires quite high spec device to encode

Hence it is the most expensive way to distribute video over a network.

NDI is codec/technology which aims at production rooms only.

Just to make it clear, 1 NDI stream requires from 60 to 120 Mbits of bandwidth (depending on the resolution). A gigabit network interface (the one from your origin server for distribution) can only transport from 7 to 15 streams, so 7 to 15 screens. And then your network capacity is close to the max or already overloaded.

Doing the same thing with an appropriate technology like UDP Multicast would consume only 6-10 Mbits for up to 250 screens! And the cost would be drastically less, aswell for the encoding part but also for the decoding (for example a simple Raspberry Pi at $35 would suffice)

Hope this helps
Guillaume
thanks 1 user thanked DWAM for this useful post.
bentzmi on 5/22/2017(UTC)
bentzmi  
#3 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 6:22:50 PM(UTC)
bentzmi

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/22/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Chicago

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Hi Guillaume, thanks for the reply! I should have mentioned that I'm completely new to the video world. I ran into the vMix booth at NAB just a few weeks ago and was super excited by its capabilities. Upgrading our video distribution came as an afterthought.

Do you have any UDP Multicast solutions you would recommend? That makes a lot more sense to me - I'm just having trouble finding the right solution. I have come across several google hits referencing VLC. Is that the software you'd recommend?

How does one get their vMix output streaming over a UDP Multicast? It looks like VLC will work on the remote TV side of things, but I don't know how to go from vMix output to UDP Multicast. Does vMix have that capability built-in?

Here are some items I found in my search:
http://www.vmix.com/know...-transport-stream-or-udp
https://forums.vmix.com/....aspx?g=posts&t=7226
https://forums.vmix.com/....aspx?g=posts&t=9655

The one link makes it sound like it's built-in, but the other threads make it sound like there needs to be some kind of VLC or FFFMPEG installation. Digging through their documentation, it's not clear to me how to configure the setup. Is it really as simple as a few lines of command line code?
sinc747  
#4 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 6:38:26 PM(UTC)
sinc747

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/2/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,018
Man
United States
Location: Fairhope, Alabama USA

Thanks: 540 times
Was thanked: 194 time(s) in 160 post(s)
bentzmi wrote:
I can't seem to find a cost-effective way to convert NDI to HDMI.

I'm aware of the presale BirdDog option, but at $1k per box that's a bit steep for video distribution:
http://www.bird-dog.tv/
It's also not available yet.

Have any of you guys looked into connecting a miniPC to the back of a TV and then just running a simple NDI viewer?

Looks Vmix BasicHD would be $60 for the software. I see miniPCs anywhere from $100 to $500. This would be a lot cheaper than the BirdDog option.


To clarify, the BirdDog box takes a SDI or HDMI camera output, converts it to NDI, and makes it available on a local area network. Not the other way around.

- Tom

ask  
#5 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 6:51:03 PM(UTC)
ask

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/13/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,161
Australia
Location: Melbourne

Thanks: 220 times
Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 181 post(s)
I would go to a hardware solution for this. Something like http://avermedia.com/pro...duct/f239_plus/overview. I have one of these that I use and it works great. There are other vendors in this space too. Take the load off your production switcher as much as you can.
kane  
#6 Posted : Monday, May 22, 2017 11:09:04 PM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 331
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 143 time(s) in 94 post(s)
sinc747 wrote:
bentzmi wrote:
I can't seem to find a cost-effective way to convert NDI to HDMI.

I'm aware of the presale BirdDog option, but at $1k per box that's a bit steep for video distribution:
http://www.bird-dog.tv/
It's also not available yet.

Have any of you guys looked into connecting a miniPC to the back of a TV and then just running a simple NDI viewer?

Looks Vmix BasicHD would be $60 for the software. I see miniPCs anywhere from $100 to $500. This would be a lot cheaper than the BirdDog option.


To clarify, the BirdDog box takes a SDI or HDMI camera output, converts it to NDI, and makes it available on a local area network. Not the other way around.

- Tom



The first release of the unit will be this way. A future update to the unit plans to add decoding as well, then it will be able to work in either direction or both at the same time.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
Speegs  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:49:56 AM(UTC)
Speegs

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/3/2013(UTC)
Posts: 405
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 76 time(s) in 58 post(s)
bentzmi wrote:

Here's the context:

I'm the A/V manager at my church and we're looking to upgrade our video distribution in the near future. Right now we're running composite video to oldschool Tube TVs over RG6 (with a few line amps here and there). Yes, it's hideous.

We already have Ethernet distributed throughout the church and I was thinking of feeding an NDI stream over a dedicated portion of the network to each TV on the campus. However, I can't seem to find a cost-effective way to convert NDI to HDMI.


If you are willing to give NDI a miss.

How about a Digital Modulator (the method I use, 45 TVS in a complex). Latency around 1.6 seconds. Not cheap, but cheaper than NDI if you already have TV amplified around your complex.

Then the TVs in your facility just "Tune Into" your own private TV station. SO NO RECEIVER EQUIPMENT the receiver is built into the Digital TVs.

An example: https://www.adigitalife.com/68-hdmi-modulator

I actually use one with 4 HDMI inputs and does 4 Channels at once (http://www.resi-linx.com/index.php?id_product=55&controller=product).

If you don't have so many TVS and really want to use IP. There are HDMI over IP devices. Yes they support 1 sender to many receivers.

An example: https://www.adigitalife....ith-poe-transmitter.html

Cheaper than BirdDogs and available already. I've used these in a few edge cases where I didn't have an antenna socket for the TV, but did have Cat5 and a separate VLAN. Do not mix these on the same VLAN as your normal network traffic. They broadcast bogging your network data lan with unwanted traffic. So put on a VLAN by itself so your network cards do not get millions of packets a day they have to listen to and ignore.

Just one sender and then one receiver per TV (that is the expensive part once you have many receiving TVs).

Essentially NDI in it's current form is not a great TV distribution product. There are other solutions that are more cost effective. The Digital Modulator is very effective, especially if you want Free to Air TV down the same cable. You will need amplifiers if going a great distance.

That may change as NDI matures, I hope it does.


Speegs  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:57:49 AM(UTC)
Speegs

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/3/2013(UTC)
Posts: 405
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 76 time(s) in 58 post(s)
One more thing to note with Digital Modulators.

Some do MPEG2 and MPEG4.

Some of the newer and cheaper digital modulators ONLY do MPEG4. I've found in Australia any TV less than 4 years old will do MPEG4. Older ones only do MPEG2.

It's easy to pick in Australia the TV that supports "Freeview" supports MPEG4 decoding. The ones that don't only do MPEG2. Digital modulators that do MPEG2 or MPEG4 seem to be more expensive.

Workaround if you wish to keep that old TV (MPEG2) is a set top tuner box, about $39 in Australia if you can still find them, tuners are not stocked at all retailers anymore.
pm  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:59:49 AM(UTC)
pm

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 11/28/2015(UTC)
Posts: 182

Thanks: 10 times
Was thanked: 32 time(s) in 27 post(s)
Check this thread for an easy way to stream by multicast in your internal network:

https://forums.vmix.com/....aspx?g=posts&t=7226

As a receiver, like DWAN wrote, a Raspberry Pi with VLC on it is enough.

Regards,
Patrick
DWAM  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 5:04:22 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
There are some important things to consider before going any further

First is to know precisely your network topology
- is your school network a single LAN (no segments or sub-networks) with a single IP range where all wall ethernet plugs are connected to the same switch?
- what is the speed of your network? 100 or 1000 Mbits?
- do you have a wall ethernet plug next to each TV set?

How many TV sets are to be fed?

You also have to decide whether you want this "school TV channel" to be played directly and automatically by the TV sets (simply by choosing a video source) or through a computer with manual operation?
- in the first case, you need a video distribution system over IP
- in the second case, you will need a solution for generating the signal (server) and a computer for each TV

When you have answered these questions, then you can start looking for an appropriate solution

Hope this helps
Guillaume
mjgraves  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:17:35 AM(UTC)
mjgraves

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,150
Man
United States
Location: Houston TX

Thanks: 319 times
Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)
If your plan is to distribute via IP it seems to me that this is really a digital signage application.

You can send a stream from vMix to nginx with mod_RTMP, then use almost anything (VLC) to receive the stream at each TV. I like the little Fit-PC embedded PCs from CompuLab for this, but a Raspberry Pi would do.

It would be really nice to have a convenient way to leverage an app on a cheap smart TV. That would be very tidy.
alexandrelinhares1  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 1:27:36 PM(UTC)
alexandrelinhares1

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 12/22/2016(UTC)
Posts: 47
Location: Brazil

Thanks: 15 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
mjgraves wrote:
If your plan is to distribute via IP it seems to me that this is really a digital signage application.

You can send a stream from vMix to nginx with mod_RTMP, then use almost anything (VLC) to receive the stream at each TV. I like the little Fit-PC embedded PCs from CompuLab for this, but a Raspberry Pi would do.

It would be really nice to have a convenient way to leverage an app on a cheap smart TV. That would be very tidy.





How to get a Raspberry Pi to play a video with VLC, I have a Raspberry Pi 3 and it does play any feed on it...
I have i few Raspberry Pi and would be great to add to my vmix workflow!
KJ4AWR  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, May 23, 2017 4:25:41 PM(UTC)
KJ4AWR

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/14/2013(UTC)
Posts: 50
Location: NC, USA

Thanks: 9 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
I have very successfully used the Zotac ZBOX-PI320-W2 machines to receive. I have them setup in Windows 10 in kiosk mode, so the system boots directly to the NDI receiver application. When I bought it the price was ~$150, but they have newer, smaller and better ones in the same line for less.

For a bit more I have used analog modulators http://www.ambery.com/albncviautor.html and converted my HDMI output to BNC or RCA and then distributed the signal over the existing wiring and setup (multiple church buildings).


Speegs  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, May 24, 2017 6:24:00 AM(UTC)
Speegs

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/3/2013(UTC)
Posts: 405
Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Thanks: 27 times
Was thanked: 76 time(s) in 58 post(s)
How many TVs are you sending to? It's quite an important factor. Do you have Coax cable already as well as network?

Btw: One hdmi single channel MPEG4 modulator is cheaper than one birddog. As cool as IP is, sometimes it's not the best tool for the job.
thanks 1 user thanked Speegs for this useful post.
mjgraves on 5/24/2017(UTC)
mjgraves  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:30:47 AM(UTC)
mjgraves

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,150
Man
United States
Location: Houston TX

Thanks: 319 times
Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)
Speegs wrote:
How many TVs are you sending to? It's quite an important factor. Do you have Coax cable already as well as network?

Btw: One hdmi single channel MPEG4 modulator is cheaper than one birddog. As cool as IP is, sometimes it's not the best tool for the job.


So true! Adding hardware to a TV seems fiddly and prone to problems. Still, it would be nice if we could stream to an app that was already on the TV.
mjgraves  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:33:38 AM(UTC)
mjgraves

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,150
Man
United States
Location: Houston TX

Thanks: 319 times
Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)
alexandrelinhares1 wrote:
How to get a Raspberry Pi to play a video with VLC, I have a Raspberry Pi 3 and it does play any feed on it...
I have i few Raspberry Pi and would be great to add to my vmix workflow!


In the past I used a Fit-PC.

I don't have a Raspberry Pi handy, but I've just loaded a small Linux distro and VLC. VLC can play RTMP streams.

Just open network location and put in an rtmp:// uri. Very much like setting up an IP camera as a source in vMix.
DWAM  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:41:19 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
As I wrote before, here : https://forums.vmix.com/...ts&m=40435#post40435
there are many things to be answered before we can give better advices.

Going for IP distribution (many solutions) is useless if the network is not suitable
Opting for a receiver device, even cheap, is useless if there is nobody to operate it
etc...

Now let's wait to have more information
bentzmi  
#18 Posted : Thursday, May 25, 2017 11:32:16 PM(UTC)
bentzmi

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/22/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Chicago

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
pm wrote:
Check this thread for an easy way to stream by multicast in your internal network:

https://forums.vmix.com/....aspx?g=posts&t=7226

As a receiver, like DWAN wrote, a Raspberry Pi with VLC on it is enough.

Regards,
Patrick


I think this may be the most attractive approach thus far. It almost seems too simple - is it really that straightforward?

When Vmix is set up with the External Output - will it display on both the local HDMI output as well as the Ethernet Stream? Or do you need to upgrade to the 4K or Pro versions that support multiple External Outputs to have both? This may be a non-issue if I end up going with two separate computers and run the vMix output from one to the other - this way I can have a slightly different mix for the remote feeds.

This is probably the wrong place for this question, but is there a way to have the Raspberry Pi open the VLC player on a fresh power-cycle? What does VLC do if the streaming source is powered-down in the middle of the stream? Will it resume streaming the feed when the streaming source is powered back on? Will I need to create some network scripts to get things configured after each power-cycle?

Right now I'm not planning for more than 6 TV's, but one of the things I like about the IP distribution approach is that someone could simply open VLC on their computer, connect to the network, and get a feed in any room with an Ethernet connection. If I'm understanding correctly, a UDP multicast doesn't care how many people are receiving the feed, and the number of destinations doesn't really affect the bandwidth requirement.

Btw, we'd have a dedicated network for this application. Sounds like we could get away with 100 MB Ethernet, although I think we already have 1 GB running right now.
bentzmi  
#19 Posted : Saturday, May 27, 2017 12:18:10 AM(UTC)
bentzmi

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 5/22/2017(UTC)
Posts: 10
Location: Chicago

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 1 time(s) in 1 post(s)
Speegs wrote:

How about a Digital Modulator (the method I use, 45 TVS in a complex). Latency around 1.6 seconds. Not cheap, but cheaper than NDI if you already have TV amplified around your complex.

Then the TVs in your facility just "Tune Into" your own private TV station. SO NO RECEIVER EQUIPMENT the receiver is built into the Digital TVs.

An example: https://www.adigitalife.com/68-hdmi-modulator


What is the image quality when you go this route? Is it indistinguishable from the hdmi source?

Looks like all of these websites want me to login to see pricing - what kind of price range for the transmitter? $500'ish? We're running composite video everywhere, but I think it's using RG6 coax. I wonder if the existing video amplifiers would be able to transmit the digital signal.


Btw, thanks everyone for the feedback - this has been super helpful.
DWAM  
#20 Posted : Saturday, May 27, 2017 6:59:02 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
For 6 Tvs I really think the easiest and cheapest option is to go for HDMI extender with multiple receivers

Something like that (there are dozens of alternative solutions - I'm only showing a diagram here, not indicating a particular model)
UserPostedImage

You plug the Tx to the HDMI out of vMix Fullscreen (or the EXTERNAL renderer if you want a different feed than PGM)
You plug a receiver to one HDMI IN of each TV
Then you just have to select the HDMI source with the TV remote
That's it you're done!

No need for a multicast encoder, no need for people to switch on the remote computers, load the correct software and get confused to the particular setup in VLC or any other player, no need for keyboards or mice etc...

This is simple, straightforward. You can build your own internal TV channel in minutes.

If you decide to go for multicast streaming, you have already understood you have a lot to learn - it is not as simple as it looks -, you will need a lot different equipments and you will have to teach a lot of people how to use it for each classroom.
The questions you asked about having the RPI or VLC to run automatically prove me right. Yes it can be done but it is a lot of work, a lot of maintenance through time, a lot of troubleshooting as soon as someone does something wrong...

My 2 cts
Guillaume
Users browsing this topic
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.