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Ross Mac  
#1 Posted : Saturday, September 18, 2021 5:51:35 AM(UTC)
Ross Mac

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I've got a broadcast in 2 and a half weeks time and just did the first technical test yesterday. Luckily it's only a host and single guest but the former had horrendous audio delay that made conversation very hard (not impossible). I had <100ms on my second laptop (vMix Call as "guest") but the host was >400ms and by their own admission <3Mbps down and 300Kbps up (return feed was minimum!). By comparison I have 500Mbps up AND down. To be fair even with video <300Kbps vMix Call was managing 30fps.

That evening I did call with the guest on US East Coast (both host and I are in Scotland), and it went smoothly with <60ms delay for both of us. They noted a fractional delay but it didn't cause any issues. Both the guest and host work in film industry so very understanding whereas I've had academics throw hissy fit if it didn't work perfectly immediately.

Both tests had P2P connection only in hope of resolving similar issues with the aforementioned academics. Only difference was that I temporarily switched off the firewall for second test... could that have made such a big difference and if so what's the permanent fix on a domestic router - DMZ? Or is it the simplest thing and the host just had rubbish internet connection and nothing will resolve that?

I went on-site at work as the host might go there. Using my vMix laptop I could connect a vMix Call also originating on same network and latency was 60ms... then 200ms... 600ms... 3s... 30s!!! I assume this would be my works firewall causing this? I'll send them the vMix guidelines and see what they can do.

Anyone's thoughts / suggestions / prayers would be appreciated.
Tone13  
#2 Posted : Monday, September 20, 2021 9:50:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ross Mac Go to Quoted Post
I've got a broadcast in 2 and a half weeks time and just did the first technical test yesterday. Luckily it's only a host and single guest but the former had horrendous audio delay that made conversation very hard (not impossible). I had <100ms on my second laptop (vMix Call as "guest") but the host was >400ms and by their own admission <3Mbps down and 300Kbps up (return feed was minimum!). By comparison I have 500Mbps up AND down. To be fair even with video <300Kbps vMix Call was managing 30fps.

That evening I did call with the guest on US East Coast (both host and I are in Scotland), and it went smoothly with <60ms delay for both of us. They noted a fractional delay but it didn't cause any issues. Both the guest and host work in film industry so very understanding whereas I've had academics throw hissy fit if it didn't work perfectly immediately.

Both tests had P2P connection only in hope of resolving similar issues with the aforementioned academics. Only difference was that I temporarily switched off the firewall for second test... could that have made such a big difference and if so what's the permanent fix on a domestic router - DMZ? Or is it the simplest thing and the host just had rubbish internet connection and nothing will resolve that?

I went on-site at work as the host might go there. Using my vMix laptop I could connect a vMix Call also originating on same network and latency was 60ms... then 200ms... 600ms... 3s... 30s!!! I assume this would be my works firewall causing this? I'll send them the vMix guidelines and see what they can do.

Anyone's thoughts / suggestions / prayers would be appreciated.


I've also had bad results with vMix Call. Despite having good internet and following the guidelines for the caller, video quality is generally poor. Latency hasn't been an issue for me but audio and video quality being poor plus temperamental connection issues for the callers have been frequent enough that I'm looking for alternatives to vMix call. It's a shame because it is integrated so well into vMix but I just can't use it on a paying job anymore.
admin  
#3 Posted : Monday, September 20, 2021 11:50:51 AM(UTC)
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Long delays really can only be caused by restrictive firewalls and slow internet connections.

Specifically if UDP is blocked by firewalls, then being forced to use TCP can cause big delays to build up
if either sides internet connection is too slow. (Whereas with UDP, big delays are not possible).

Pretty much all issues with vMix Call come down to this. So a careful read of our firewall documentation is important:
https://www.vmix.com/kno...ll-firewall-requirements
thanks 1 user thanked admin for this useful post.
eduardocfs on 9/20/2021(UTC)
Tone13  
#4 Posted : Monday, September 20, 2021 8:00:54 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
Long delays really can only be caused by restrictive firewalls and slow internet connections.

Specifically if UDP is blocked by firewalls, then being forced to use TCP can cause big delays to build up
if either sides internet connection is too slow. (Whereas with UDP, big delays are not possible).

Pretty much all issues with vMix Call come down to this. So a careful read of our firewall documentation is important:
https://www.vmix.com/kno...ll-firewall-requirements


Thanks

I followed that firewall guide on the last job and had very poor call quality. vMix Call manager was indicating green for each call status, 1280x720p and a bit rate of around 300-600kbps for each call. Lots of stutter and heavy compression. Is vMix Call doing this to fit a 720p stream within the 300-600kbps that I had for that call? Id much rather have lower resolution and a smoother, more responsive and less compressed image.
Next to the vMix PC I had a laptop with a Zoom call going with around 20 users logged in. I understand that zoom is lower resolution but the calls looked much better. Clean, fluid 360p looks better than heavily compressed and stuttery 720p

As much as I love vMix, a big part of it for me is how well vMix Call is integrated into the software with auto generated Mix- for each guest being a huge plus BUT I think I'm going to ditch vMix call as it's just been so unreliable for me. Looking around for solution, I stumbled on a streaming app called Melon. Melon is not really a solution in its current state but the way they are handling calls seems much better and more flexible and makes me wonder if vMix call could also be improved in a similar way.

Cheers
Ross Mac  
#5 Posted : Monday, September 20, 2021 8:45:40 PM(UTC)
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Tone13, I've seen some impressive set-ups using Zoom but these had a laptop per user, with secondary screen with pinned video - all running into laptop via HDMI capture, and audio running to physical desk. This is far too complex / expensive for our needs.

I tested NDI-out from Teams and whilst video may have not been as good, I had this on a separate laptop running to the local switch (home network) and whilst audio runs to EVERY input, it just took some planning and also managed to run a return feed to Teams with External 2 and audio on separate bus. Did work, but I'd be worried about issues with Teams...

Going to keep trying to work on vMix Call - will fix work firewall as I'll start being on site more (as I'm moving into a campervan which isn't ideal for broadcasts!) and our host next week may just come in to get better connection.
Tone13  
#6 Posted : Monday, September 20, 2021 9:50:35 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Ross Mac Go to Quoted Post
Tone13, I've seen some impressive set-ups using Zoom but these had a laptop per user, with secondary screen with pinned video - all running into laptop via HDMI capture, and audio running to physical desk. This is far too complex / expensive for our needs.

I tested NDI-out from Teams and whilst video may have not been as good, I had this on a separate laptop running to the local switch (home network) and whilst audio runs to EVERY input, it just took some planning and also managed to run a return feed to Teams with External 2 and audio on separate bus. Did work, but I'd be worried about issues with Teams...

Going to keep trying to work on vMix Call - will fix work firewall as I'll start being on site more (as I'm moving into a campervan which isn't ideal for broadcasts!) and our host next week may just come in to get better connection.


Yep, I've seen those Zoom setups too with multiple laptops and considering going that route as a last resort. Another option could be separate laptops per caller and but something like vMix desktop capture to bring these into vMix. Obvios limitation is the number of NDI inputs......

Another option could be the iOS app Stream to Studio. It uses SRT and supports return feed to your caller. The limiting factor is it seems to be iOS only and only supports 4 incoming feeds compared to the 8 with vMix Call which I usually max out on most projects
mavik  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, September 22, 2021 3:15:23 AM(UTC)
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A few options from my side:
- medialooks VT
- Larix broadcaster via SRT and talkback
- https://appr.tc/
Tone13  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, September 22, 2021 3:55:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
A few options from my side:
- medialooks VT
- Larix broadcaster via SRT and talkback
- https://appr.tc/


Thanks. Looked at Larix but no return video which is a major drawback.

Am going to try SRT Mini Server’s ‘Stream to Studio’ app next.
mavik  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, September 22, 2021 9:12:14 PM(UTC)
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In Larix you can set another SRT (program feed) as talkback. Hopefully I find some time to make a video for this use case.
admin  
#10 Posted : Thursday, September 23, 2021 12:41:16 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Tone13 Go to Quoted Post
1280x720p and a bit rate of around 300-600kbps for each call.


Browsers will adapt the resolution down as needed. The only one that doesn't support this is Safari on iOS.
This is why we recommend a Laptop running FireFox or Chrome. Smart phones just aren't reliable enough to be recommended in most situations, due to their browser limitations.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
thanks 2 users thanked admin for this useful post.
eduardocfs on 9/23/2021(UTC), emmanuelvm on 10/24/2021(UTC)
Tone13  
#11 Posted : Thursday, September 23, 2021 8:06:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
In Larix you can set another SRT (program feed) as talkback. Hopefully I find some time to make a video for this use case.


Cool, will look into it. When you say 'as talkback' is that with return vision? If so, thats great but it just needs to be simple enough for the non tech savvy guest at the other end to use.

Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Tone13 Go to Quoted Post
1280x720p and a bit rate of around 300-600kbps for each call.


Browsers will adapt the resolution down as needed. The only one that doesn't support this is Safari on iOS.
This is why we recommend a Laptop running FireFox or Chrome. Smart phones just aren't reliable enough to be recommended in most situations, due to their browser limitations.

Regards,

Martin
vMix


Interesting! I've generally had more success with people on mobile devices. Will do more tests.
Vince Beck  
#12 Posted : Sunday, October 24, 2021 9:45:25 AM(UTC)
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A better option currently is to use Zoom and ZoomIso, up to 8 callers at 720P per machine, 4 at 1080P, Mac only at this time.
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