logo

Live Production Software Forums


Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
KRTW  
#1 Posted : Saturday, November 21, 2020 2:25:08 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
When I ask this, I am not referring to the software component of how encoding works. I get that. What I seek is the path, the physical paths that vmix uses to deal with video, including the graphics card, capture card, vmix and vmix encoders.

Really want to understand this element of vmix processing better.

3 Encoders Max (Vmix) 8 Inputs (Blackmagic Quad 2) . 1 Graphics card.(gtx 1070) 1 CPU.(my system)

My GTX 1070 - Total number of NVENC = 2

So what happens here? As the video streams hit the PCIe bus from the capture card, it uses the GPU to encode the streams to H.264 and has to switch between the 6 streams (max inputs used so far) to encode them all at the same time? Then the CPU saves the files to the hard drive while sending the video to Vmix Before or After encoding? - to its graphic interface - and another recording stream is created that needs to be encoded as well and sent to the recording medium?

I would love to understand this signal path. Any help MOST appreciated.

Want to make the right decision when upgrading my system for better quality, stability and ability.
KRTW  
#2 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2020 3:20:13 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
No one knows? The only thing I have to go on then is the recommended computer specs on vmix site, which I'm in the process of taking care of. BUt understanding this process would be really helpful. Vmix support?

Not a graphics card expert. Recommended NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1660 Ti. My 1070 is under spec, or is it? But lots of folk here have suggested the Quadro cards the best to use. I can get a really good price on a Quadro M5000 PCI-Ex16 8GB DDR5. But the 1660 is even cheaper new.

I have a z360 HD3 board. Do I really need to upgrade to a z390?

Buying the i9 9900k processor. And adding another 32 GB of ram for a total of 64 GB.

My video input is using the Blackmagic quad 2.

I cannot afford to make a mistake on this upgrade. The old system will become a rental with 4 inputs instead of 8. Any help making this decision most appreciated.
kross  
#3 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2020 8:37:33 AM(UTC)
kross

Rank: Newbie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/31/2020(UTC)
Posts: 7
United States

Regarding the graphics card, my gut feeling is that your 1070 will be fine. I'd hold off on upgrading the GPU until you test the new system and determine if the GPU is holding you back.

As for Quadros, I'm using an M4000 with 6 inputs, and 2 NVENC outputs, and it handles it without breaking a sweat. The 6 inputs barely tax the 3D utilization of the GPU, according to task manager.
DWAM  
#4 Posted : Monday, November 23, 2020 6:39:02 PM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,534
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 208 times
Was thanked: 721 time(s) in 552 post(s)
Everything you ask for has been discussed many times in this forum and explained in the vMix videos on their YT channel. We don't have time to repeat over and over the same information especially for those who don't take time to find the information they need by themselves...

Let's make it quick (hoping that you will cope with it to investigate more on your side)

vMix is designed to work with Nvidia GTX or Quadro card to "process" or "render" ALL INPUTS (except those that can't be offloaded to GPUs, like NDI, some codec specific video files, old titles (not GT) and so on). This is explained in the vMix Knowledge Base !!!

When it comes to encoding :

- you have to understand the difference between "processing" and "encoding"
> processing is related to displaying inputs. everything is treated as UNCOMPRESSED VIDEO for best performance
> encoding is required to stream and record > this relates to OUTPUTS and by definition consists into converting from UNCOMPRESSED VIDEO to COMPRESSED VIDEO > This requires a lot of processing power.

Since 2015, and the GTX 7xx series, Nvidia implemented a Hardware Encoder for H.264 in their cards. Vmix takes advantage of this to offload the CPU > this is called GPU encoding

GTX cards allow 2 simultaneous encodes (newer models allow for 3), typically for 1 RTMP stream (H.264 + AAC) AND 1 record as long as H.264 is used
QUADRO cards, SINCE THE P SERIES, are only limited by their own power to deliver simultaneous encodes, meaning with a P2000 or above you can easily have 6,7 or more encodes WITHOUT AFFECTING THE CPU (as long as you stick to H.264 codec)

Regarding to your situation, which I already replied to, if you want to record 6 simultaneous feeds and stream at the same time you need a lot of power for encoding. 2 options :
- a beast CPU (like 10+ cores) and a basic GTX > most of the work is CPU based
OR
- an average CPU and a QUADRO (above P series) > most of the work is GPU based

Hope this helps. You now have the essential information to understand how vMix works and to be able to learn more by yourself.
KRTW  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, November 24, 2020 12:13:38 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
I understand the frustration with repeated questions....but sometimes the problem is that you don't know what to ask. I don't have the vocabulary and have looked at hours of videos already. Now maybe I have a better chance. A simple link is all that's required. But I sincerely appreciate your response. It makes sense completely. And, I can now move forward on the learning curve on my own. Thank you. I also want to understand how the Quad 2 "processes' the inputs. It starts there.

I cannot afford a 10 core. But I can and am doing the i9 9900k. I talked to a top level tech concerning what happened when my system suddenly shot up to 101% - he thinks the system was trying to send out more data than the pipe could handle - which was flooding the swap file with crc errors, bogging it down.

And I can afford a used Quadro, the M5000 or the P4000- so with the combination I should at least be close to having a system capable of what I'm asking. A second way of course is to use 2 computers, send main to another computer via NDI and use it just for streaming, and in critical applications I may do this anyway....But I have time to test.

Originally Posted by: DWAM Go to Quoted Post
Everything you ask for has been discussed many times in this forum and explained in the vMix videos on their YT channel. We don't have time to repeat over and over the same information especially for those who don't take time to find the information they need by themselves...

Let's make it quick (hoping that you will cope with it to investigate more on your side)

vMix is designed to work with Nvidia GTX or Quadro card to "process" or "render" ALL INPUTS (except those that can't be offloaded to GPUs, like NDI, some codec specific video files, old titles (not GT) and so on). This is explained in the vMix Knowledge Base !!!

When it comes to encoding :

- you have to understand the difference between "processing" and "encoding"
> processing is related to displaying inputs. everything is treated as UNCOMPRESSED VIDEO for best performance
> encoding is required to stream and record > this relates to OUTPUTS and by definition consists into converting from UNCOMPRESSED VIDEO to COMPRESSED VIDEO > This requires a lot of processing power.

Since 2015, and the GTX 7xx series, Nvidia implemented a Hardware Encoder for H.264 in their cards. Vmix takes advantage of this to offload the CPU > this is called GPU encoding

GTX cards allow 2 simultaneous encodes (newer models allow for 3), typically for 1 RTMP stream (H.264 + AAC) AND 1 record as long as H.264 is used
QUADRO cards, SINCE THE P SERIES, are only limited by their own power to deliver simultaneous encodes, meaning with a P2000 or above you can easily have 6,7 or more encodes WITHOUT AFFECTING THE CPU (as long as you stick to H.264 codec)

Regarding to your situation, which I already replied to, if you want to record 6 simultaneous feeds and stream at the same time you need a lot of power for encoding. 2 options :
- a beast CPU (like 10+ cores) and a basic GTX > most of the work is CPU based
OR
- an average CPU and a QUADRO (above P series) > most of the work is GPU based

Hope this helps. You now have the essential information to understand how vMix works and to be able to learn more by yourself.
DWAM  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, November 24, 2020 1:10:10 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,534
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 208 times
Was thanked: 721 time(s) in 552 post(s)
Quote:
I also want to understand how the Quad 2 "processes' the inputs

QUAD2 delivers uncompressed signals go the system. vMix pipes them to GPU for display and processing. This has minimal impact on CPU
Quote:
I can afford a used Quadro, the M5000 or the P400

Pay attention to details! I mentionned the P series and above. I think a P2000/2200 is the minimum solution to consider. Meaning an M5000 or or P400 are not appropriate
Quote:
A second way of course is to use 2 computers

I don't think this will help if you still want to multirec 6 or 8 ISOs.
A basic GTX 960 can easily rec and stream a 8 cams production because it only requires 2 simultaneous encodes.
However as soon as you need more H.264 encodes, you must be careful about CPU power or use a QUADRO card.
KRTW  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, November 24, 2020 2:25:53 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
I mistyped - P4000 Sorry. I am paying attention. I've attempted the purchase of the P4000 and await a response. Heading up to computer store to buy the i9 9900k. I was already able to record 6 camera inputs and the main output - without streaming and no difficulty. And I will be running major tests before doing this professionally again. Uninstalled computer components will be used as a backup/rental system for 4 inputs only.

My only remaining question has to do with system board....I have a B360. It will take the processor, and has limits on ram speed, plus no overclocking, which I do not do anyway. Hoping it will do the trick, and if not, I'll upgrade to the Z390 board.

Originally Posted by: DWAM Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
I also want to understand how the Quad 2 "processes' the inputs

QUAD2 delivers uncompressed signals go the system. vMix pipes them to GPU for display and processing. This has minimal impact on CPU
Quote:
I can afford a used Quadro, the M5000 or the P400

Pay attention to details! I mentionned the P series and above. I think a P2000/2200 is the minimum solution to consider. Meaning an M5000 or or P400 are not appropriate
Quote:
A second way of course is to use 2 computers

I don't think this will help if you still want to multirec 6 or 8 ISOs.
A basic GTX 960 can easily rec and stream a 8 cams production because it only requires 2 simultaneous encodes.
However as soon as you need more H.264 encodes, you must be careful about CPU power or use a QUADRO card.


DWAM  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, November 24, 2020 2:34:49 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,534
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 208 times
Was thanked: 721 time(s) in 552 post(s)
Quote:
I have a B360


Axxx, Bxxx, Hxxx chipsets are not really appropriate for production indeed. They can do the job for very basic setups...

Focus on Zxxx and Xxxx for best performance
KRTW  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, November 24, 2020 4:41:46 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
Working on this. But there's budget too. I think I'll be starting with what I have and see how it goes, while keeping my eyes open for a deal on an upgrade to the Z390.

Originally Posted by: DWAM Go to Quoted Post
Quote:
I have a B360


Axxx, Bxxx, Hxxx chipsets are not really appropriate for production indeed. They can do the job for very basic setups...

Focus on Zxxx and Xxxx for best performance


KRTW  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, November 25, 2020 3:08:14 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
Seriously - thank you. For the last 48 hours I have gone down the rabbit hole. Looking at encoding, decoding, input/editing and output compression - I still have a lot to learn, but my understanding is much better. Specifically about the hardware choices I have made. The B360 will not do. I'm not even sure the i9 9900k will do, and the next leap up in capabilities is expensive....But folks, in this either you do it or not. There's no middle ground. So, a full re-evaluation of the hardware is in process.

A bunch of this comes down to PCIe lanes. I NEED the graphics card and the Quad 2 to be clear...that's 24 lanes, without M.2 or anything else....and I'm still learning, but it seems clear. The B360 has 12 lanes...already not enough even just for the graphics card. At the very least I'll go with the Z390 - but am looking at upgrading further.

I thank you all for the heads up. I needed some info to get started. Although a small operator, this is my living and I can't afford to not do it right. Kind of amazed at how well the systems doing as it is, and can hardly wait to have the right specs.

Seeking more detailed information on CODECs....This is a list of the CODECs suported by the Quad 2:
VC-Intra, AVCHD, Canon XF MPEG2, Digital SLR, DV-NTSC, DV-PAL, DVCPRO50, DVCPROHD, DPX, HDV, XDCAM EX, XDCAM HD, XDCAM HD422, DNxHR & DNxHD, Apple ProRes 4444, Apple ProRes 422 HQ, Apple ProRes 422, Apple ProRes LT, Apple ProRes 422 Proxy, Uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2, Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2, Uncompressed 10-bit 4:4:4.

I'll do these one by one to understand better how to maximize quality and efficiency if I have to. If anybody has a link to a place where CODECs are listed by feature/use - this would be great. I have not found one yet.
DWAM  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, November 25, 2020 3:33:25 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,534
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 208 times
Was thanked: 721 time(s) in 552 post(s)
Forget about codecs with vMix ! The only thing that matters is UNCOMPRESSED video, meaning no codec is used at all, just RAW data from capture card to vMix > best quality possible and almost no impact on system.

Ragarding PCI-e lanes, yes it's important... but your GTX or Quadro will work fine at 8x...
If you want more you must go for 10th gen with X series CPU (up to 40 PCI-e lanes) but many $$$...

Regarding your concerns, my best vMix computer is still based on an Asus PRIME Z270-A with a 7700K CPU and a GTX1660 Super... doesn't tremble with 8 SDI cams, 8 vMixCalls and a few NDI feeds i/o...
I also still use very often 3770K based mainboards with GTX960 or Quadro P2200 for many gigs... I just don't do ISO recordings because my job is to produce quality LIVE videos, not to assume it will be so bad that post-prod is required !
So take it easy !
KRTW  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, November 25, 2020 11:25:58 AM(UTC)
KRTW

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/29/2020(UTC)
Posts: 60
Canada

Thanks: 1 times
I am multicording 9 inputs to separate SSDs. 8 cams and the main mix. Are you? With your system just running the 8 inputs and recording just main output - great, and streaming.

I am now looking at an Intel Core i9-9940X Processor, LGA 2066 system. Again, I can't afford to not have this work. Offering full post on my gigs is a huge benefit.

Originally Posted by: DWAM Go to Quoted Post
Forget about codecs with vMix ! The only thing that matters is UNCOMPRESSED video, meaning no codec is used at all, just RAW data from capture card to vMix > best quality possible and almost no impact on system.

Ragarding PCI-e lanes, yes it's important... but your GTX or Quadro will work fine at 8x...
If you want more you must go for 10th gen with X series CPU (up to 40 PCI-e lanes) but many $$$...

Regarding your concerns, my best vMix computer is still based on an Asus PRIME Z270-A with a 7700K CPU and a GTX1660 Super... doesn't tremble with 8 SDI cams, 8 vMixCalls and a few NDI feeds i/o...
I also still use very often 3770K based mainboards with GTX960 or Quadro P2200 for many gigs... I just don't do ISO recordings because my job is to produce quality LIVE videos, not to assume it will be so bad that post-prod is required !
So take it easy !


Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.