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usmedia  
#1 Posted : Thursday, July 4, 2019 2:08:01 AM(UTC)
usmedia

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Hello together

I wanted to ask if there is a way to de-embed separately the audio channels of cameras in the vmix. We would like to control the audio separately for our larger productions and leave this work to a sound engineer.

Of course, there would also be the option to de-embed any audio signal beforehand, but a solution in vmix would be much more elegant.

At the moment I have looked around if there is a VST plugin which translates the signal to Dante. So far I haven't found it.

An internal plugin or a possibility to de-embed the signals and convert them into Dante would be great.

Best
Jan

elgarf  
#2 Posted : Thursday, July 4, 2019 2:31:35 AM(UTC)
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Hello,

I think you can use Dante Virtual Sound Card, and send audio channels from cameras to Bus A & Bus B.
usmedia  
#3 Posted : Thursday, July 4, 2019 2:39:51 AM(UTC)
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Yes, I already do that, but the outputs are limited to bus A maximum 2 channels and bus B maximum 2 channels. But if I have e.g. 7 cameras, this system doesn't open anymore. In addition, I use bus A and bus B differently than the de-embedding of the cameras.
elgarf  
#4 Posted : Thursday, July 4, 2019 3:03:34 AM(UTC)
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A bit weird way: route audio through NDI Studio Monitors, but I'm afraid of delay.
Barney Box Lane  
#5 Posted : Thursday, July 4, 2019 1:34:58 PM(UTC)
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what elgarf said should work if your cameras are on the network if they're on hdmi then try getting them on the network (have you seen the adapters for the soundcard?) or send to a mixer and then put the mixer on the network?
mavik  
#6 Posted : Thursday, July 4, 2019 6:21:52 PM(UTC)
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Please try Dante Via. I use a 4 CH SDI capture card and I can make each of the channels available on the Dante network. Just enable the Dante switch inside of Via and you can use the Controller to route it.
Please keep in mind that VIA and the virtual sound card excludes each other. They can't run concurrrently.
usmedia  
#7 Posted : Friday, July 5, 2019 4:55:17 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for your answers. It is a pity to use additional resources like a separate computer for this purpose if it could be de-embedded much easier in the existing system.

@Barney Box Lane - As soon as the cameras enter the vMix as SDI sources, every source is available as NDI. In this case the Studio Monitor in combination with DanteVia might work on another system, but external resources e.g. another PC system are required.
Edit: I tried out. Only one export to DanteVia from Studio Monitor is possible. Multiple instances of the Studio Monitor on the same PC cannot be converted to DanteVia.

My main concern is to solve such "simple" processes as centrally as possible. I much prefer to outsource other ressources to other systems. For example, streaming, multicorder or slomo.

Maybe this could be a future feature. ;)
ASAudioVideo  
#8 Posted : Friday, July 5, 2019 7:18:05 AM(UTC)
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I'm glad you brought this up. I too was wanting a way to sand any sources (camera, playback, vmix call, etc) out to a soundcard individually (not just a bus mixdown). When I asked the guys at vmix about this at NAB (two years in a row) I got the same reply both years that there was no one interested in this. Apparently this is not the case since there are now 2 of us asking for the same thing and where there are 2 speaking up on a forum there are probably more who haven't chimed in yet.
I have been working on an NDI to Dante converter idea for a little while. It would still require a separate machine to do the conversion though. Ideally it would be running Linux and ffmpeg would make the conversion. I own a Rednet card but have not tried it with Linux yet to see if Alsa will see it. If it does then im pretty sure I can compile ffmpeg with NDI support on Linux and make it so it will decode the NDI and spit it out to the Rednet card so it can get on the Dante network. As of right now I don't have any spare machines to drop the card in and try it but once I do I will report back. This won't be a cheap solution but done correctly it could covert up to 6 cameras (with only one Ethernet on the motherboard) to Dante and double that with dual enet on the mobo. Each camera could supply up to 8 or 16 channels (not sure what the limit is on NDI off top of my head). Rednet card supports 128 channels bi-directionally so it can handle a lot.
mavik  
#9 Posted : Friday, July 5, 2019 5:02:31 PM(UTC)
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Again. I think it's much easier without much effort. I have a magewell 4ch SDI card and each input is visible in VIA. With the "enable Dante" switch each input is available on the network.
usmedia  
#10 Posted : Friday, July 5, 2019 9:53:01 PM(UTC)
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Blackmagic cards allow translation into DanteVia but not on a single level. If this would solve the Magewell card, I would have to buy one for it. The Magewell card only limits me to "HD-SDI" inputs. But if I still work with products like BirdDog, I can look for a new solution.
Of course it would be nice to have a NDI processing engine in vMix which allows me to do any routing/de-embedding/embedding etc. I am already at the limit with the two A and B bus outputs and would like to have more routing possibilities.

In the meantime, I'll probably go for the Sienna Processing Engine, as my demands are probably far too high.

@ASAudioVideo - I'll talk to our developers, because they work with ffmpeg on linux. I'll let you know if we could do something simple.

Jan
mavik  
#11 Posted : Friday, July 5, 2019 11:06:38 PM(UTC)
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I'll show you a live demo today, July 5th, 4pm UTC at my facebook (mavikav), youtube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYOVBlgfc2heMW6M-YIDInQ) and twitter (@mavikstreaming) accounts.
usmedia  
#12 Posted : Saturday, July 6, 2019 2:22:34 AM(UTC)
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Hey Mavik

I miss your livestream, sorry. The problem with Dante via is that I can only use the SDI inputs. My question above was about general inputs. This also includes NDI sources.

Jan
mavik  
#13 Posted : Saturday, July 6, 2019 4:56:49 AM(UTC)
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No worries, the restreaming failed anyway. Here is a recording available. Enjoy.
ASAudioVideo  
#14 Posted : Saturday, July 6, 2019 5:09:21 AM(UTC)
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I've seen a couple of people mention Via... The catch to Via is that even in the best possible settings it can only go down to 10ms latency (software limited). To go below that you need use Dante virtual sound card (4ms plus whatever buffering your hardware needs) but to make sure your packets arrive in that 4ms window and you don't get late packets your still need to do some tweaking to your PC (specially windows) to make it stable. With a Rednet (or any of the other Dante pcie cards which are all pretty much rebadged Audinate cards) you can go as low as 1.5ms which is basically invisible. Also via is kind of a hodgepodge of pipeing to get different things to talk to each other and the Dante network. it's a really grest piece of software that can be great for non-critical applications but it does do a lot of mixing and matching to get things to work. Mixing asio and wmm drivers and such. I use to use it to make a behringer XR18 mixer into a Dante mixer and it was great but there was always latency to deal with and I even had a dedicated Intel nuc running only Via to accomplish this. It also required the occasional reboot to get it to start routing audio again. I dont want to sound like I'm bad mouthing Via (I teach Via as part of my Dante Level 1 and 2 classes (I am a certified trainer)), it is a good piece of kit as long as you know what your using it for. It just sounds like @usmedia is looking for something more robust if I'm not mistaking.
andser  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, July 9, 2019 6:08:10 PM(UTC)
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This may not be a direct answer to your requirement however the following helped me to run fixed installation mostly unattended for nearly two years now without a blimp.

Time source: network scast, ucast or mcast in theory should not depend on the time sync. Since my audio is independent from video – stitching was failing altogether with lip-sync. This was quite visible across multiple cameras where audio was ahead or behind a video capture. Days of pocket captures using wireshark provided a clue. Long story short – added stratum 1 NTP clock to my infrastructure using a raspberry PI with two independent GPS modules. From dealing with tens of seconds of delays it helped me to reduce the jitter to tens of milliseconds.

Network switching: congestion as apparent as it seem is not always easy to assess. Using network broadcast isolation approach with help of segmenting vlans reduced underlying network chatter to the absolute “need-to-know-basis” between devices.

Network switching capacity: no secret here – more sources and overall data traversing your network – longer it takes for a switch to process. The final solution was a hardware segmentation, where video streams landed on one switch, dante with fall-back on another two, WIFi and all production non related yet on another. Management headache, not to mention contention between switches. Obvious choice was to move to the fully managed fiber stack. Current setup 10GB fiber between switches (stacked) and to all video production systems.

Dante: with all above current peak latency reported by the Dante Controller is at 0.375 ms. Using mixture of the ASIO, hardware, AVIO sources and destinations uni and multicast, altogether 15 devices with quite extensive routing. Moved completely to dante as the audio delivery layer.

Decoupling audio from video: “Tried that, been there, now I want a t-shirt”. What worked for me was to discard audio from cameras and used dedicated microphones setup connected to the X-32 rack furnished with the dante interface. Sound engineer has his full freedom with what to do with the sound, using mixer’s capabilities and additional digital snakes. Actually there are two sets of X-32 – one fixed setup and another one for the stage gigs where sound is distributed using ultranet.

Vmix production: Video from sources and stitched sound from X-32 master channels with dante ASIO sources. Audio and video thanks to the stratum NTP stays solid 17ms apart and this much audio is delayed in Vmix directly.

Andy
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