logo

Live Production Software Forums


Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
floz23  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 3, 2018 10:08:03 PM(UTC)
floz23

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/25/2017(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: East Coast USA

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Hi, a new serious hardware bug has been discovered in all modern Intel cpus. I'm slightly worried that vmix is about to take a decent performance loss very soon.

https://www.theregister....2/intel_cpu_design_flaw/
thanks 2 users thanked floz23 for this useful post.
MWilson on 1/4/2018(UTC), rowby on 1/6/2018(UTC)
floz23  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, January 3, 2018 11:47:52 PM(UTC)
floz23

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/25/2017(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: East Coast USA

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 5 post(s)
MWilson  
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 4, 2018 4:56:08 AM(UTC)
MWilson

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/6/2017(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Mississippi, United States

Thanks: 8 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Is it too early to tell in any way how / if the recently announceed "Intel Design Flaw Fiasco" and subsequent "Performance Killing Patch" will affect vMix usage? From what I understand, it's isolated to certain scenarios and functions, and that "30% less performance" that's being reported will only rear it's head in certain scenarios:

"The expected short term solution will come from OSes: operating systems can apply what's called a kernel Page Table Isolation (PTI) that cloaks kernel memory addresses. The caveat is that the fix will force the CPU to constantly flush its caches that hold its TLBs, or translation look-aside buffers, which are essentially caches that allow the CPU to quickly access user memory."

"In some instances, a performance hit of up to 30 percent or more can be seen, due to the CPU flushing caches, and having to go to slower main memory to access data. While the instances are currently regulated to I/O intensive applications and virtual machines, it does pose a potential situation for slowdown in a desktop environment."


Signs seem to be pointing to vMix performance taking a hit, understandly this is out of the vMix team's control, but many users are a bit worried about this. Normally I wouldn't jump straight to summoning him, I know he's busy, but since he'd be the only one that would know - I'm requesting comment from Martin, when and if he feels comfortable doing so, of course.

Thanks.
floz23  
#4 Posted : Thursday, January 4, 2018 10:46:23 AM(UTC)
floz23

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/25/2017(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: East Coast USA

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 5 post(s)
I know this is all still very speculative, and not all of the full details have come out, but apparently AMD processors will be treated the same as Intel ones (will suffer performance loss) in the mainline linux kernel, as reported by hothardware:

Quote:
Update, 10:56 PM - 1/2/18 - As it turns out, apparently the Linux patch that is being rolled out is for ALL x86 processors including AMD, and the Linux mainline kernel will treat AMD processors as insecure as well. As a result, AMD CPUs will feel a performance hit as well, though the bug only technically affects Intel CPUs and AMD recommends specifically not to enable the patch for Linux. How Microsoft specifically will address the issue with the Windows operating system remains unclear until the company's formal Patch Tuesday update is made known, hopefully soon.

Read more at https://hothardware.com/...acos#dKrEzMz1Tpc01dYT.99
mjgraves  
#5 Posted : Thursday, January 4, 2018 4:29:38 PM(UTC)
mjgraves

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,151
Man
United States
Location: Houston TX

Thanks: 319 times
Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)
floz23 wrote:
I know this is all still very speculative, and not all of the full details have come out, but apparently AMD processors will be treated the same as Intel ones (will suffer performance loss) in the mainline linux kernel, as reported by hothardware.


How the Linux tribe handles the matter is of little value to vMix. How Microsoft handles it is what will matter. We'll know soon enough. Those who bought a more capable CPU than they needed will surely be rewarded.
rowby  
#6 Posted : Thursday, January 4, 2018 7:20:18 PM(UTC)
rowby

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 11/23/2016(UTC)
Posts: 330
Man
Location: USA

Thanks: 179 times
Was thanked: 26 time(s) in 25 post(s)
For now I am considering disabling Automatic windows update in my vmix machine.
MWilson  
#7 Posted : Friday, January 5, 2018 3:25:06 AM(UTC)
MWilson

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/6/2017(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Mississippi, United States

Thanks: 8 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Intel has issued a statement

https://www.pcworld.com/...-the-cpu-kernel-bug.html

Quote:
Intel seems to feel that the typical end user won’t suffer any ill effects. “Contrary to some reports, any performance impacts are workload-dependent, and, for the average computer user, should not be significant and will be mitigated over time,” Intel said in its statement.

Intel went a bit further on its call, but again without any of the real clarity customers may have hoped for. “It depends on the workload specifically in use,” Smith said.

Intel doesn’t differentiate between client PCs and datacenter servers when looking at the effects of the bug, executives said. Instead, those applications which exist primarily in the user space could see an impact of between 0 and 2 percent, executives said. But synthetic workloads, which lean heavily on the interaction between the application and the operating system, could suffer up to a 30 percent performance hit.
sinc747  
#8 Posted : Friday, January 5, 2018 3:28:04 AM(UTC)
sinc747

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/2/2013(UTC)
Posts: 1,072
Man
United States
Location: Fairhope, Alabama USA

Thanks: 553 times
Was thanked: 200 time(s) in 166 post(s)
According to this article in PC World magazine...

"Finally, H.264 video encoding, timed Linux kernel compilation, and FFmpeg video conversion tasks didn’t lose anything."

So maybe we dodged this bullet.

- Tom
thanks 2 users thanked sinc747 for this useful post.
rowby on 1/5/2018(UTC), RobLambert on 1/5/2018(UTC)
RobLambert  
#9 Posted : Friday, January 5, 2018 5:59:17 PM(UTC)
RobLambert

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/2/2017(UTC)
Posts: 86
Location: Belize

Thanks: 99 times
Was thanked: 5 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Tom,

I wonder if that is relevant to just linux and not windows. Bottom line, I don't know what a kernel is and I also don't know what linux is other that it is an operating system and sounds like a peanuts character. Is this relevant to windows???? Sure hope so.

The text says
Michael Larabel, the open-source guru behind the Linux-centric Phoronix website, has run a gauntlet of benchmarks using Linux 4.15-rc6, an early release candidate build of the upcoming Linux 4.15 kernel. It includes the new Linux KPTI protections for the Intel CPU kernel flaw. The Core i7-8700K saw a massive performance decrease in FS-Mark 3.3 and Compile Bench, a pair of synthetic I/O benchmarks. PostgreSQL and Redis suffered a loss, but to a far lesser degree. Finally, H.264 video encoding, timed Linux kernel compilation, and FFmpeg video conversion tasks didn’t lose anything.
MWilson  
#10 Posted : Saturday, January 6, 2018 12:46:43 AM(UTC)
MWilson

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 6/6/2017(UTC)
Posts: 40
Location: Mississippi, United States

Thanks: 8 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Rob,

Linux and Windows are worlds apart. Nearly everything is different from the ground up, the tip of the ice-berg being DirectX / Direct3D, which is Windows Only, and vMix relies heavily on it, so we'll have to see how that goes.

That being said, everything I'm seeing and hearing indicates this issue is going to affect things like server operations, high-demand synthetic workloads, MySQL management, etc - more than anything else. Not to say other stuff won't be affected, but probably not as much. The consensus seems to be that things like Premiere and After Effects may take a hit, but it will be smaller, probably around the 2-5% mark if that (hopefully).

No one can say for certain, but based on what's been reported and prior discussion, in tandem with the good news concerning hardware accelerated H.264 on Linux (again, Linux doesn't really affect Windows, but this news is more good than bad) I'm cautiously, slightly optimistic.

At any rate, Windows patches are pushing out soon now released (Windows 10 is out , coming to 8 and 7 Tuesday, thanks Kane), we'll be able to measure for ourselves soon enough.

I'd encourage users to do some benchmarking now before the patch happens, so they can make comparisons later.
kane  
#11 Posted : Saturday, January 6, 2018 2:24:36 AM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 331
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 143 time(s) in 94 post(s)
MWilson wrote:
At any rate, Windows patches are pushing out soon


Windows 10 patches for Meltdown are out as of yesterday (Jan 3rd). Windows 7 and 8 patches release next Tuesday.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
thanks 1 user thanked kane for this useful post.
MWilson on 1/6/2018(UTC)
floz23  
#12 Posted : Saturday, January 6, 2018 2:47:11 PM(UTC)
floz23

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/25/2017(UTC)
Posts: 14
Location: East Coast USA

Thanks: 2 times
Was thanked: 7 time(s) in 5 post(s)
Good news. Just tested with the latest patch. I'm on the Fall Creators update, so I got KB4056892.

I have a 7700k with 16gb ram and a gtx1060 6gb. BM Decklink quad2

Seeing about 1-3% higher vmix idle.

I tried to stress it. Did a 10mib 1080p stream to yt live, and connected two cameras to the quad2. Pushed a lot of overlays and animations, bunch of audio streams at once, etc. Was seeing about 5%-8% higher maximum cpu values, but nothing that worried me.

So far this appears to be a non issue to us.

regards,
-Adam
thanks 2 users thanked floz23 for this useful post.
rowby on 1/6/2018(UTC), mjgraves on 1/8/2018(UTC)
Users browsing this topic
Guest (4)
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.