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al4video  
#41 Posted : Wednesday, November 8, 2017 11:20:31 AM(UTC)
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admin wrote:
BETech wrote:
To my knowledge, I have not seen any live broadcasting organisations using the ‘false colour’ technique


That doesn't mean it isn't a better and or faster way of setting exposure, just means it is still quite new and broadcasters seem to be quite slow to adapt to new technology.
By contrast the advent of digital cinema has caused a rethink of a lot of these processes relatively recently for filmmakers.

Have a look at the video I posted, Shane seems to make the case that false colour is easier and more accurate to use for exposure than waveforms and I can't see any downside to going
that route.

I should point out that the IsoCorder Pro already has the traditional waveform/vectorscope functionality and is at a price point that won't break the bank for broadcasters:
https://www.newtek.com/software/ndi-isocorder/

I am more interested in next generation tools that will help those new to streaming improve their video.

Regards,

Martin
vMix


I totally agree with you Martin. False color is the way to go. The industry is just slow to adapt.
NHT  
#42 Posted : Wednesday, November 8, 2017 11:30:08 AM(UTC)
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stevespaw wrote:
I will throw in my 2 cents :-)

In reality, in vMix itself, a waveform/vector would be of very limited value. There is already plenty to do for the operator and to think that the vMix operator (director/producer) is also going to shade cameras, is sort of ridiculous.

Steve



Steve I think there are mainly 2 camps here.

One wants scopes for live exposure which would probably be best served by a traditional zebra on a separate window.

The other wants to use scopes for all their traditional broadcast uses, like...
Camera line-up.
Camera balancing.
Exposure.
Checking picture legality.
Checking external sources.
Correcting external sources.
Adjusting knee values.
Adjusting gamma curves.

I support and champion vMix, it's a fantastic product but to make the leap from niche streaming package to full broadcast tool it should really have scopes within it.
NHT  
#43 Posted : Wednesday, November 8, 2017 1:01:50 PM(UTC)
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al4video wrote:

I totally agree with you Martin. False color is the way to go. The industry is just slow to adapt.


False color is crude guesstimating scale and has little advantage over zebra except for seeing black areas with no color information.

It's too crude for color balancing/correction and not accurate enough for diagnostics and by that I mean 'wow why does that camera not look right' not nerdy engineer diagnostics.


A basic tool for exposure is very different to a waveform and vector scope, I think people should establish why they want either if casting an opinion.

TBH you can eyeball exposure on the fly if you trust your monitor, which you set up properly with a waveform and vector scope.
BETech  
#44 Posted : Wednesday, November 8, 2017 9:45:12 PM(UTC)
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It’s very clear that video measurement tools are important to many Users of vMix. Hence the number of posts and views on the subject. Opinion will be diverse, depending upon the application for which vMix is being used. For the most part, it’s a LIVE video production tool used to broadcast to video distribution systems, screens (big & small) and streaming to the internet. Again the workflows shall be indicative of a Live production environment, where accepted traditional and current methodologies are employed. That is not to say digital cinema or filmmakers are excluded, but rather a welcome addition to the broader scope of vMix.

Audio and video measuring toolkits should include a diversity of tools to suit the application and the User’s needs, no matter the philosophy or reasoning that individual may have. A hammer may be good for nails, but is of little use for nuts and bolts. ‘False Colour’ has its application, and when used alongside a waveform and vectorscope, it is a remarkable toolkit to set exposure and colour match cameras, or any video source that requires luminance and colour manipulation.

Many Directors of Photography (video) use ‘False Colour’ for pre-production shoots, when time is available to adequately light the scene for the desired mood, as do colour graders and video editors in post-production. Personally, I have the Ikan MR-7 for field work and the MS-21 for post-production for this reason, so I am very familiar with the usage of false colour. But, in Live production, albeit sports, stage or venue, with its fast pace and numerous camera angles, waveform and vectorscopes are still favoured for speed and accuracy. On many occasions, an operator/s will be assigned solely to expose and colour balance four or more cameras. A sight to behold.

For those vMixers who engage in professional or television broadcast work, it is important to ensure that the video displays are correctly calibrated and aligned for luminance, chrominance levels and gamut, so that adjustments made using various video measurement tools and controls are accurately reflected on the screen. Very few prosumer LCD/LED screens are set-up correctly. Something else worth considering in the broader scope of video production.

While we all appreciate your enthusiasm for new technologies, it is important not to alienate those Users who have embraced the current or traditional workflows in live video production. By all means add ‘false colour’ to the repertoire of video measurement tools if you chose to implement this additional feature to vMix. If not, ‘false colour’ on its own may not be accepted as you may hope, given the responses thus far on this forum. It is a big undertaking for such a feature, and nobody would think less of you should you choose not to implement the video measurement toolkit in full. There are many other software/hardware options available externally, though Newtek’s US$995 solution, with all its additional features, is probably not cost effective for most vMixers.

Martin, your guidance and future plans for this video measurement toolkit would be most welcomed, so that those interested can move forward and plan their vMix system needs appropriately. With thanks in advance, Ross.

UserPostedImage

vMix LIVE 4K showing ‘False Colour’ using the Ikan MR-7 HD-SDI display
thanks 1 user thanked BETech for this useful post.
NHT on 11/9/2017(UTC)
Peter B  
#45 Posted : Thursday, November 9, 2017 4:15:00 PM(UTC)
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NHT wrote:
stevespaw wrote:
I will throw in my 2 cents :-)

In reality, in vMix itself, a waveform/vector would be of very limited value. There is already plenty to do for the operator and to think that the vMix operator (director/producer) is also going to shade cameras, is sort of ridiculous.

Steve



Steve I think there are mainly 2 camps here.

One wants scopes for live exposure which would probably be best served by a traditional zebra on a separate window.



For most vMix users basic level indication is all they need as they wouldn't have the luxury of ccu capable cameras and depend on the camera ops to adjust the iris.
If they did they could afford to buy a waveform such as a BMD Smartscope $795, Video assist $495 etc

I remember using an old Pal Sony mixer that had zebra displays on PV.
NHT  
#46 Posted : Thursday, November 9, 2017 6:50:06 PM(UTC)
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Peter B wrote:

For most vMix users basic level indication is all they need as they wouldn't have the luxury of ccu capable cameras


Peter I was more thinking about using in camera settings or the input Colour Adjust to balance the cameras rather than CCU's.
zenvideo  
#47 Posted : Friday, November 10, 2017 7:15:54 AM(UTC)
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BETech wrote:
vMix LIVE 4K showing ‘False Colour’ using the Ikan MR-7 HD-SDI display

Based on that image, I added a "False Colour" display mode to one of my NDI utilities. Still needs some work, but just illustrates how an NDI app could be used externally. Combined with my NDI Router app, you could switch the monitor(s) between any of the Cameras/Calls inputs plus the Main Output.
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FalseColour1.PNG (720kb) downloaded 15 time(s).

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stuartdeankites  
#48 Posted : Friday, November 10, 2017 7:22:40 AM(UTC)
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That looks brilliant Martin - first step towards just the kind of easy to use display most users would appreciate I am sure.
zenvideo  
#49 Posted : Friday, November 10, 2017 7:41:31 AM(UTC)
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The only "fly in the ointment" at this stage is that the NDI encoding of the Camera inputs takes place before the Colour Adjustments take place, meaning you can't use an external NDI app to monitor the changes, aside from getting the NDI feed via the Main Output.
BETech  
#50 Posted : Friday, November 10, 2017 8:28:59 AM(UTC)
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Martin I use ‘External 2” as the switched or routed output for vision engineering (CCU) assessment. Works both for HD-SDI and NDI. The actual switching uses vMix shortcuts, Midi and a Korg NanoPad as the control surface. The Ikan MR-7 is connected via HD-SDI output from the Decklink Duo2. The only thing missing at this stage are shortcuts for each of the controls within the ‘vMix-Input-Colour Adjust’ menu to permit tactile control using knobs and sliders using a Behringer MM-1 or similar.

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zenvideo  
#51 Posted : Wednesday, February 28, 2018 10:24:47 AM(UTC)
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zenvideo wrote:
BETech wrote:
vMix LIVE 4K showing ‘False Colour’ using the Ikan MR-7 HD-SDI display

Based on that image, I added a "False Colour" display mode to one of my NDI utilities. Still needs some work, but just illustrates how an NDI app could be used externally. Combined with my NDI Router app, you could switch the monitor(s) between any of the Cameras/Calls inputs plus the Main Output.

It's taken a while for me to get round to creating a stand-alone NDI False Colour video monitor, but I've now released a dual screen NDI monitor app with two alternative LUT options, based on the images submitted here. Available from www.zenvideo.co.uk/ndi.htm

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