logo

Live Production Software Forums


Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
vedcom  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:19:21 AM(UTC)
vedcom

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/15/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15

Dear all,

I'm on the board of Directors of an organ concerts society and I was asked to find an affordable video solution to broadcast live on a large screen the concerts so that the audience can view the organist playing.I'm planning to use 2 HD cameras connected to a computer, Vmix to mix the video feeds, add text overlays etc.

With the demo version of VMix, I simulated what I wanted to do using 2 usb webcams. Now that I know that I can do what I want using VMix, I need the hardware to connect 2 HD cameras (low level HD camera from Panasonic/Sony etc)

Here are my questions:

1. Am I right to assume that I need 2 blackmagic Intensity Pro to capture the live feed from the 2 cameras?

2. If I want my setup to be easy to carry around (using a powerful notebook instead of a desktop), can I use 2 blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (USB)?

3. If I want to use a third camera eventually, I guess I can add a third Intensity Pro,as long as my computer' motherboard as a free PCI-E slot of course?

4. Using Intensity Shuttle with a notebook, I will be limited to 2 cameras, I don't think that USB as enough bandwidth for 3 feeds right?


Thank you for validating my understanding/setup. If you have recommendation, please feel free to share.

Best regards
François
ali  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:24:59 PM(UTC)
ali

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/9/2012(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: lebanon

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
Hi vedcom,

Intensity cards can acquire only one input at a time. My suggestion is to go for DUO or Quad depending on your budget. The problem with duo or quad is that they have HD SD/SDI inputs and no HDMI ,but on the brighter side you can get HDMI to SDI mini converters that way your not tied to the short HDMI cables and instead you can have a 50 meters long coaxial cable with BNC tips and still maintain a perfect image quality.
I think this answers all your questions, if not then please let me know so I can give a better input,

Regards,

Ali
vedcom  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:34:23 PM(UTC)
vedcom

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/15/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15

Hello Ali,

Many thanks for your answer. Since I wrote my post I did some more research; I now know that I can't use the Intensity Extreme (Thunderbolt)because I can't daisy chain them; Intensity Shuttle (USB 3.0) is probably limited to 1 device (still trying to get confirmation from Blackmagic).

So I guess I will need to forget portability and go with PCI-E (Pro); being new to video (at least at this level) I'm glad to see that I can use capture cards with HD SD/SDI, using a HDMI to SDI converter, opening the possibility for the Duo or Quad.

That's great!

Best regards
François
ali  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:57:07 PM(UTC)
ali

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/9/2012(UTC)
Posts: 28
Location: lebanon

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 3 time(s) in 3 post(s)
No need for confirmation, the Intensity product line is limited to one INPUT at a time. Check the diagrams (http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity/models/).
You can still be portable if you configure a PC with a small size case supporting a handle on top and an LCD monitor strapped to the side. (Believe me it works, I have tried it personally)...:)


All the best,

Ali
ask  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 24, 2012 1:24:45 AM(UTC)
ask

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/13/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,053
Australia
Location: Melbourne

Thanks: 165 times
Was thanked: 181 time(s) in 166 post(s)
Be aware that the Shuttle needs USB3 or Thunderbolt. Each is a different model, and from other forums and the BM site, the device only supports some motherboards.
vedcom  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, October 24, 2012 7:23:54 AM(UTC)
vedcom

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/15/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15

Thanks Ali and Ask,

I've been in touch with BM support (great support by the way, fast reply, detailed answer) herer is part of BM support email:

"So far the only motherboard chipset that we have been able to test reliably enough to certify is X58 chipset, and the only USB 3.0 Host Controller has been the Renesas/NEC USB 3.0 Host Controller. I have talked to customers who have been able to get the Shuttle up and running on computers that don't meet these minimum requirements but they are not officially supported so if it doesn't end up working there's not much we will be able to do on our end."

The Shuttle thunderbolt has a limitation; while thunderbolt can chain up to 12 devices, the Shuttle can't be chained. So you will need a motherboard with 2 thunderbolt connectors to use 2 Shuttle TB.

After Ali suggestion to use a DUO + mini converters, I did some maths and to connect 2 camera it would cost (duo + 2 mini converters) $1085, while selecting 2 Intensity Pro will cost $398 and I still can add a 3rd Intensity Pro for another $199.

I'm sure that there are many advantages to select a Duo (more professional grade I think, use of coax for long distance etc), I think that for my needs, 2 or 3 Pro will provide what I need.

Thanks for your comments, it really helped me better understand all that "video stuff".

Best regards
François
halgatewood  
#7 Posted : Friday, October 26, 2012 2:43:35 PM(UTC)
halgatewood

Rank: Newbie

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/5/2012(UTC)
Posts: 2
Location: Oklahoma City

I am using vMix to live broadcast to HDTV's around our church. One thing to note, and this may just be our setup (would love confirmation), but the feed coming out of vMix is not in realtime on the TVs, there is a second delay or so.

We are external outputting out of an Intensity Pro card to RCA cables into an RF modulator that goes through coaxial cables throughout the building.

We want to put some TV's in our auditorium but with the delay it wouldn't work.

If we output through the card with HDMI would the stream be in realtime?
doyousee.me  
#8 Posted : Sunday, October 28, 2012 12:05:04 PM(UTC)
doyousee.me

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/4/2012(UTC)
Posts: 129
Location: the Netherlands

Was thanked: 10 time(s) in 10 post(s)
i use the hdmi output of my videocard (geforce) and don't have a noticable delay in there
as a matter of fact, the delay when i use my no-buffer player is just .7 of a second, and images are encoded, sent across some 1200 miles of internet and are decoded by the player.


as for the topic : i would always go for the flexibility of a pc. I travel Europe with my kit, but wouldn't consider the limitations of a laptop.
(i made a portable case with al connections easily accessible on the front), if you think of it , with a laptop you won't have to carry a pc, but you do need much more cabling, external devices (either usb3 or thunderbolt) and a box full of powersupplies.

If you need some hdmi extension, you can use some hdmi through cat5 extenders, i have used them in a very hostile environment (top fuel and jet car drag racing) and they work without issue (shielded tp would be even better because i had to shield the cat5 connectors to prevent cell phone interference, but only at the connectors , where there is no twist).
M@ik
vedcom  
#9 Posted : Sunday, October 28, 2012 6:15:48 PM(UTC)
vedcom

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/15/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15

M@ik, if I understnad you correctly, the .7 second delay if from the source to theremote site located 1200 miles away. Right?

The delay post by halgatewood is worrying me... I'm about to buy everything (computer, intensity cards, projector, hdmi extender etc) and wouldn't want to end-up with a non functional system because of the delay.

Please, all of you with experience with vmix, let me know how's the delay/latency

Regards
François
doyousee.me  
#10 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 6:37:50 AM(UTC)
doyousee.me

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/4/2012(UTC)
Posts: 129
Location: the Netherlands

Was thanked: 10 time(s) in 10 post(s)
correct, camera->vmix->fmle->roundtrip through dsl from midengland to midgermany -> flash in ie -> my eyes

this is ofcourse with all buffering switched of everywhere, but that's not a problem locally (buffers are mostly in the player)

i don't know how intensity usb's behave , i use the internal ones.

a small delay (less than half a second) shouldn't be a problem anyway, peoples brains will correct that (unless they are freaks like me ;) )

maybe halgatewood should try the 'regular' output of his videocard to check 'liveness'. If the lobby has some distance to the audiosource you may even need to add videodelay, because bytes travel a lot faster than sound does.

M@ik
vedcom  
#11 Posted : Monday, October 29, 2012 9:54:34 AM(UTC)
vedcom

Rank: Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/15/2012(UTC)
Posts: 15

Thanks M@ik, it is reassuring me.

I will use 3 intensity Pro (internal pci-e); i7 2600k proc, 8gb and one of nvdia geforce videocard, so I should have good results I guess.

Regards
François
doyousee.me  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2012 11:02:55 AM(UTC)
doyousee.me

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/4/2012(UTC)
Posts: 129
Location: the Netherlands

Was thanked: 10 time(s) in 10 post(s)
great,

keep us posted on the results (i haven't used more than 2 intensities yet, but others have, be sure you have a proper motherboard that can handle some serious IOs, I can't help you with that yet)

M@ik
Luc Henrion  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2012 2:08:31 PM(UTC)
Luc Henrion

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/6/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Man
Location: Belgium

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
well, half a second CAN be a problem in this particular case: if people are seeing the organist playing and hearing him half a second before, that can be disturbing, don't you think so ? I was thinking about a similar setup...
Steadirob  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2012 8:02:38 PM(UTC)
Steadirob

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/23/2012(UTC)
Posts: 71
Location: Bangkok

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
Luc, you might be right, but in this case maybe more for the organist:
If this is an electronic organ, the sound can be delayed with something like the Behringer delay box, making your image and the sound in perfect sync, however, the organist will have to wear headphones directly connected to the organ or he/she will be confused by the delayed sound.

If the organ is a windblown ( unamplified) organ, you will just have to allow the delay.
In my setup I see a delay of approx. 0.5 seconds and I don't think the audience will be disturbed by that.

Keep in mind that shooting with digital cameras will always give you some delays as there are several analog to digital to analog steps in the whole chain, plus the needed video effects/buffers etc that will add up.
Adding hdmi to sdi converters or cat5 to whatever converters can give additional delays.
And often the output from the (digital) camera already shows a small delay when only connected to the monitor or projector.

Rob
Steadirob  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, October 31, 2012 8:24:24 PM(UTC)
Steadirob

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 8/23/2012(UTC)
Posts: 71
Location: Bangkok

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 2 time(s) in 2 post(s)
In the debate between SDI and HDMI I would like to give advise/experience:

Avoid the use of hdmi if you plan to make a system that has to be moved and re-connected frequently.
Hdmi is a very sensitive connector system that easily fails without possibility to repair, except buying new cables.
Cable length is limited and the cables are stiff and expensive, connectors easily snapping off, etc
Hdmi was intended for home use, fit once and do not touch anymore.

This influences the choice of equipment, of course.
Sdi is more expensive but much much much much more reliable.
(just ask owners of Canon 5D/7D of their hdmi experience....)

In case you have to work with hdmi cameras, it is better to use a small battery powered converter box with a short and carefully protected cable in between.

Go for SDI is my advice.

Rob


Luc Henrion  
#16 Posted : Thursday, November 1, 2012 6:37:33 AM(UTC)
Luc Henrion

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/6/2011(UTC)
Posts: 79
Man
Location: Belgium

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
regarding the delay: a few months ago, I had to use a couple of cameras to put on screen the image of two pianists (mostly, also sometimes a part of the orchestra) playing "le carnaval des animaux" (Saint Saëns), together with some related AVI files. I used an Edirol V4 and SVHS connected DV cameras, and the delay was really very, very small. I'm planning now to upgrade to HD and using VMix but delay would definitely be a problem for that particular case. If you see the pianist playing a chord 1/2 second after hearing it, it's really disturbing.
Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.