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mitchstein443  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2015 10:26:06 PM(UTC)
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Since April of this year I have invested alot of time and effort into getting 4 live camera feeds (Standard Definition) to mix using vmix.. And finnally SUCCESS..

How I did it (for those who want to and not go through the hours of trial and error).

4 ION video2pc MKII usb 2.0 capture boxes
4 camcorders (I'm using panasonic dvc20p, but any 4 camcorders with rca output (yellow,red,white))
Thinkpad I7 laptop (win 8.1 64, 8 gigs ram, usb 2.0 and usb 3.0 nvidia 600 onboard video) you could use an I3 acer with nividia onboard.

the trick is you can only put two of these ion devices on each usb bus.
So 2 go on the usb 2.0 ports and 2 capture devices go no the 3.0 bus ports..
If you try three on a single usb port one will overheat and lock up all of them.

Now if your using a desktop I was successfull with the built on the motherboard usb ports to hold 2 of these and then added a pci usb 2.0 card and put two on that.
So far have recorded 4 different 1 hour live shows without a problem.

Hope this helps some people to save sometime and money..

The one and probably most important thing I have learned in the 15 years of video editing, streaming and capturing is to get a computer and use it for one thing. Don't try using the same computer you capture video on to play games and browse the internet.. Dedicate a machine as a video, capture, edit and encoder and you'll save yourself alot of trouble.

Anways, for my setup, lenova thinkpad i7 2.1 ghz, 1 usb 3.0 4 port swith and 1 usb 2.0 4 port switch and vmix standard edition cost me well under 1500$ and works great, with overlays titles etc etc etc. Allowing me to much more creative then with my old school videonix 4 port mixer..

Life is good..

And now to solve other problems..
sinc747  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 2:14:54 AM(UTC)
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Well done, Mitch! A man after my own heart!!

- Tom
IceStream  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, December 23, 2015 9:25:09 AM(UTC)
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@ mitchstein443

Glad you finally found SUCCESS!
I'd be curious to also know what other hardware you've tried that doesn't or hasn't worked...


Ice
Speegs  
#4 Posted : Thursday, December 24, 2015 9:11:18 AM(UTC)
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mitchstein443 wrote:
Since April of this year I have invested alot of time and effort into getting 4 live camera feeds (Standard Definition) to mix using vmix.. And finnally SUCCESS..


Next stop 4 x full HD < $1500 ...

ok maybe < $3000 would be more doable (maybe).
mitchstein443  
#5 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 4:39:22 PM(UTC)
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Update:
We ran into a little problem using 4 ION MKII's, the laptop I am using has three USB ports, so two of the ION's had to go on a POWERED (won't work at all without the power)4 port USB 3.0 hub plugged into the USB 3.0 port on the laptop. after about 1 hour the hub and both ION's would overheat. Thus bringing us down to two cameras.

So we tried it with just three IONS and the powered hub success. BUT only three cameras.

Solution:

I found from trial and error that if you mix brands of capture devices you can put two on each physical usb port with a powered hub. ION MXII and the cheapy Easy Cap off ebay for $5 mixed very well and we have succeded in 4 camera shoots (SD). one ION on each usb port and then the ion and easy cap on a powered hub on the usb 3.0 port.

Now I have a friend working on an HD setup on his desktop. Once he gets the capture card compatibilities down and four cams working I'll let everyone know.

A special note: Using powered hubs is necessary even on the ports that do not have more then one device on them. I have found after several hours of not using powered hubs the laptop would get very very hot and start to malfunction.

My thinkpad didn't have a problem (see above specs in first post) with the power but the Acer I3 laptop did.

and the touch screens are awesome, I found myself using the touch screen more then the keyboard shortcuts. An Idea I had is to get a 19inch touch screen, program a app with just a few keys and a tbar, and use it as a secondary monitor laying flat on the desk with the keys programed as shortcuts in vmix.. I heard someone doing it as an app for Ipads but I can't imagine that htere is no delay or even an acceptable delay.
mitchstein443  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 4:45:37 PM(UTC)
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Speegs wrote:
mitchstein443 wrote:
Since April of this year I have invested alot of time and effort into getting 4 live camera feeds (Standard Definition) to mix using vmix.. And finnally SUCCESS..


Next stop 4 x full HD < $1500 ...

ok maybe < $3000 would be more doable (maybe).


we are working on that solution. if your talking just video capture and not the vmix cost and computer cost then under 1500 should be pretty easy. I know we have two cams at HD working already.
mitchstein443  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 4:52:46 PM(UTC)
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IceStream wrote:
@ mitchstein443

Glad you finally found SUCCESS!
I'd be curious to also know what other hardware you've tried that doesn't or hasn't worked...


Ice


welp we tried the ION, easy cap, pinnacle capture dazzle devices, the sabrient devices and the avermedia. All of them had exactly the same problems adding two to one port and they'd either fry themselves, or quickly overheat. Only th ION worked (until we went more then an hour) so we had to combine. the Dazzle as soon as we connected a second one even to a different usb port fried the two dazzles.. ouch..

After more experiementation it seems that any four different brands will work well. The IONS and cheapy easy caps can run for days (we left one setup running for four weeks so far in a security setup). The dazzle and avermedia started to loose quality after several hours.
jhebbel  
#8 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 5:04:34 PM(UTC)
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Speegs wrote:
mitchstein443 wrote:
Since April of this year I have invested alot of time and effort into getting 4 live camera feeds (Standard Definition) to mix using vmix.. And finnally SUCCESS..


Next stop 4 x full HD < $1500 ...

ok maybe < $3000 would be more doable (maybe).


That is easy;

Yuan High-Tech UB5A0N4 $599
4x Marshall CV200 ($399) / Marshall CV550 ($399) / Marshall CV502 ($499) / Marshall CV342 ($599)

Or of course you could just use HD webcams, logitech 920 looks pretty good as far as webcams go.
Ittaidv  
#9 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 6:47:02 PM(UTC)
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Even cheaper: use 4 x xiaomi yi. If you don't like the fisheye and you're a DIY guy, you can even put a CS or C mount lens on it like this guy did:


The yi's have clean hdmi, and if you take out the battery they can run long times without overheating. Let's say with lenses and some good hunting on aliexpress and ebay you could get the cams for 300$ and add a lot of possibilities to your setup.

I'm not saying you will get the perfect image, especially in low light, but on the dashcamtalk forums, you can find lots of hacks for this camera, giving you control over most parameters, colors, even iso and some more complicated settings.

We now have 6 of them for a 360 video rig, and might use them once in a while in our streaming setup as well, on spots where you can expect a drink to be spilled on the camera, or people bumping into it :)

jhebbel  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 7:34:58 PM(UTC)
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I would, and alwayse, caution against HDMI, but if you go into it knowing the tradeoffs and find it a livable solution the video quality should still be better than the SD system you are using now.
Ittaidv  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 8:23:15 PM(UTC)
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We use hdmi in our setups for a long time now already, and have eliminated all the troubles with it. I know most pro's will advise against it, and they are right. Hdmi is fragile, it can't run over long distances and the cables are often weak.

Still I think hdmi is worth considering if you take some time to modify your camera a bit and if it's a static camera. For a shoulder cam or a camera in a rough enviroment I agree you can't get around sdi.

The price difference between a camera with and without sdi is often huge, while the features are sometimes almost the same. A good example is the xa25 from canon, which has xlr input and sdi output. It's almost exactly the same camera as the legria hf g30, just a few connections are different. Price difference: +1000 euro.

Common problems are either the ports of the camera that get damaged over time, cables sliding out of the camera, cables breaking and signal loss over great distance.

How we modded our camera's:

First of all by using either HDMI port protectors if they're available, or by securing a mini/micro hdmi to hdmi adapter with sugru to the cams. If something breaks it's the adaptor or the protector, which is cheap to replace. Our current legria mini x camera's already survived +100 gigs in rough festival and club enviroments. Not one internal hdmi connection of the cams failed, ever. We take one extra with us all the time though.

here's an example:

UserPostedImage


Second we check where we put the camera's. If there is a risk of the cable being unplugged, we use a magic arm or a clamp to make sure it will not get released by accident.

Off course we use hdmi to sdi converters to bridge distances longer then a meter. You can buy them for cheap on aliexpress.

Same goes for the cables, you can get short hdmi cables for less then a dollar each, so if you have enough spares, it's pretty failsafe or replacable for cheap.

Right now we're looking into modding those yi's and glueing the sdi convertor somewhere on top of it, or even by putting them together in one small fake peli case with a hole for the lens and the power adapters and a 1/4 inch screw to attach it to a light stand or a tripod. This would make the perfect camera to put somewhere outside on a festival, in the reach of people, where we would not care too much if it's damaged or stolen.







mitchstein443  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, January 27, 2016 10:00:23 PM(UTC)
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HDMI can be extended to up to 250 feet with powered HDMI extenders.
I also found a hdmi to cat6 converter (and back again) theoretically it should be able to go up to 650 feet over a cat6 cable..
I understand the "fragility" of HDMI. Which is one reason I stuck to SD.

As for cameras..

We have tried the highend camcorders from most manufacturers over the last ten years. Here is what I have learned..

Sony - great auto focus when recording sporting events (following a ball or puck gets tricky with most brands especially at far distances) sony is great at it for camcorder costing $600 and up

Sanyo Toshiba and most other brands besides sony and panasonic, either have NO or very poor image stabilization. Until you get over $1000..

Panasonic at every level from the gs30 - dvc20 has superior image stabilization, auto focus AND what sony lacked light adjustments.

In many events we found the cameraman looking ringside up at a wrestler on the ropes and right behind the wrestlers head is a parcan.. Sony and all the others would get a white flash, then fade adjust up and down and eventually go b/w and then come back to proper focus and color.. The panasonic would just get a white flash that lasts about a third of a second after you stop pointing it directly at the bulb in the par can..

Plus we found the picture quality through the rca cable over distances of over 100 feet up to 900 feet did not change with the panasonics (and this is with an $85 gs-30 palmcorder 1ccd). the gs-30 picture quality did not have a percievable difference from to 200-500$ camcorders in the other brands.. all panasonic 3ccd camcorders were superior in picture quality especially over long distances.. the g3-320 is under $200 brand new.

just to give you some background, I've been mixing video since the 1980's on a poormans budget. I used to do concerts for the hairbands and then in the early 2000's we started a pro wrestling company just to have something to record. We work on a McGiever shoestring budget. you can see some of our work on tvbydemand.com (my website).

after about 4 years of using the GS line of panasonic camcorders I started running into the cable problems and jack wearout problems of the walkamn style jack to 3 rca cable they include with the cams.. which is why we switched to the dvc line from panasonic. A nice side benefit of the dvc line is the professional look..
jhebbel  
#13 Posted : Thursday, January 28, 2016 7:06:11 AM(UTC)
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Couple other notes on SDI vs HDMI.

Where HDMI cables have versions and are not backward compatible (For simple 1080p cameras this is not a huge issue), SDI is just coax and never changed with the SDI revisions.

HDMI is quite expensive for long runs, whereas SDI is just coax and dirt cheap.

HDMI with extenders is still very limited in range, SDI can usually go 350 feet without extenders, thousands with amplifiers.

SDI standard allows for much more than just video, SDI standard allows for 16 channels of audio, PTZ and camera control, talkback, and tally all on a simple coax cable.

And probably the biggest difference and certainly the main reason SDI is REALLY used in the professional market, HDMI relies on a digital handshake between source and destination, not only does this handshake usually take a second or two, any degradation or fault in the handshake will lead to a black signal and cripple your production until fault is traced and cables are unplugged and replugged.


HDMI has the benefit of having some cheaper camera options due to its wide use in consumer industry, but capture, switching, and distribution equipment for SDI and HDMI are typically priced the same.

Also worth noting that HDMI pretty much requires you to upgrade everything in your workflow or buy a bunch of RCA -> HDMI adapters that can be finicky, whereas SDI is fully backwards compatible all the way to 480i SD using the same RCA outputs your cameras already use, meaning you could slowly upgrade equipment and phase out SD over time
mitchstein443  
#14 Posted : Thursday, January 28, 2016 10:59:14 PM(UTC)
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As for feet with the HDMI (1080) my partner did a run this week of 200 feet and had no problems. But I convinced him to try sdi, we are getting sdi to HDMI convertors because his capturecards are hdmi only. Does anyone know which coax it uses? I have about 10,000 feet of rg58 and well over that of the type comcast uses sitting in my garage..
jhebbel  
#15 Posted : Friday, January 29, 2016 7:54:00 AM(UTC)
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Mostly rg59 I think, not sure the difference between 58 and 59, shielding maybe?
Ed Tech  
#16 Posted : Friday, January 29, 2016 10:43:59 AM(UTC)
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You might consider RG6.

Larger conductor.
More insulation.
Greater signal integrity.
And the cost difference is not that much.
jhebbel  
#17 Posted : Monday, February 1, 2016 5:24:14 PM(UTC)
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Ittaidv wrote:
Even cheaper: use 4 x xiaomi yi. If you don't like the fisheye and you're a DIY guy, you can even put a CS or C mount lens on it like this guy did:


The yi's have clean hdmi, and if you take out the battery they can run long times without overheating. Let's say with lenses and some good hunting on aliexpress and ebay you could get the cams for 300$ and add a lot of possibilities to your setup.

I'm not saying you will get the perfect image, especially in low light, but on the dashcamtalk forums, you can find lots of hacks for this camera, giving you control over most parameters, colors, even iso and some more complicated settings.

We now have 6 of them for a 360 video rig, and might use them once in a while in our streaming setup as well, on spots where you can expect a drink to be spilled on the camera, or people bumping into it :)



Out of curiosity i did some checking up on the xiaomi yi as Im alwayse looking for cheap ways to do more cameras, but apparently the xiaomi yi, like most action cameras, do not have clean HDMI.

Shame
Ittaidv  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2016 6:57:55 PM(UTC)
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I did some tests and had clean image on the cams. Didn't test if it was uncompressed, but definitely a clean feed. If you want i can make a short demonstration in our office with them ;)
jhebbel  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, February 2, 2016 7:09:26 PM(UTC)
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Not sure why everybody online was saying there is no way to get rid of the icons.
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