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Ittaidv  
#1 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 7:17:18 PM(UTC)
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We just purchased the 4k version of vmix, so we can have a double external output. I'm doing tests with this right now, since our next big client is national tv in our country.

They want us to send a 'program mix' and an 'aux mix', and no frame may be different between them.

Right now i'm testing the external outputs, and when i press the i button, i see some info displayed.

From what i see, one mini monitor card is rendering 20 - 30ms faster then the other, and one dropped 1 frame in the beginning of the session.

I'm wondering: is there a way to 'Genlock' those 2 outputs together? The signals will arrive in a big OB truck, and really, if one of the outputs would drop frames, and the other would not, it could make for a disaster, since they work with traditional equipment to pick the signal up and the head of production said their equipment is very sensitive to this.

Our machine can for sure handle the in-and outputs, we already used it for heavier tasks with more inputs.. We got 6ms input lag on our inputs, not bad i would say..

I found the option: 'Synchronise output with refresh rate', but i assume it has to do with the refresh rate of the monitors, but not with synchronising output 1 with nr.2.

Ittaidv  
#2 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 8:58:45 PM(UTC)
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UserPostedImage

I have a bit of a difference between the 2 outputs (external 1 and 2), when i run them from one machine to the other.. Any way to fix this?

Both images are from the same camera filming a screen with BBC sound/video sync on youtube. One is external output 1 which is the program (vmix) mix, the other one is taking from the camera directly.
Ittaidv  
#3 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 9:12:12 PM(UTC)
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Even more weird: on the mixing computer, where i run the test on, external 1 and 2, who are using the exact same cam as an image, report different things:

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage

Since the source framerate should be the same (same camera), i wonder where the dropped frame comes from?
thecloudmediagroup  
#4 Posted : Monday, January 18, 2016 10:29:22 PM(UTC)
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Not sure why this would happen but the first thing I would do I make sure that both cards have the most up to date and same firmware. Check that they are both the same version. A difference of firmware could potentially cause different results.
jhebbel  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:00:26 AM(UTC)
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Since I see the shots titled as Decklink Mini's I assume 2 BM cards are being used, could be a result of the hardware pipeline bandwidth, since these cards exist in truly separate hardware instances and do not communicate with each other (As far as I know), it is difficult for them to synchronize with each other. You might need a single card solution to achieve true synchronization. I did some projection mapping in the past and we had to run special cables between our FirePro cards (not sli, cables designed specifically for syncing frames) to keep them from causing ghost projections from being a frame or two behind.
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Ittaidv on 1/19/2016(UTC)
Ittaidv  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:35:49 AM(UTC)
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Indeed we use 2 bm cards, so now i'm looking into the decklink duo to solve this issue. What is weird though, is that dropped frames are reported to be caused by frame drops of the source. Since both outputs use the same source, I would assume they would drop the same frames. If it was caused by harddisk or cpu I would understand it as a bandwidth issue.
jhebbel  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:43:16 AM(UTC)
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If its dropped from the source rather than just a latency in one output I would argue the cause is possibly still the same, just the opposite side of the coin. Another possible cause that would require Dev feedback, I see the preview feed is the one that behind, perhaps rendering priority is given to the program feed and preview eats up what's left sometimes resulting in a dropped frame, if you transition and swap program and preview does the delay follow the input or stay with the program or preview channel?
Ittaidv  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 8:50:34 AM(UTC)
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Good remark! Indeed it would be nice to hear Martin's say about this, i will try to swap outputs and see if there is a priority for the program feed.
jhebbel  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 9:00:39 AM(UTC)
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Quick and dirty test shows that preview and program likely render with same priority, this may just be because my system is not stressing itself to do so though

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Ittaidv on 1/19/2016(UTC)
Ittaidv  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 9:45:04 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for testing! Our system is an i7 2600k, with 16 gb ram and a gtx 950 videocard. It will handle only 3 cams during the event, so normally i suppose that should be ok, right?
Mathijs  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 9:48:05 AM(UTC)
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The decklink duo might resolve this when it has a clock input connected, if not this card is just 2 decklink sdi's on one card, each driven by separate pci express lanes and showing up in windows as 2 separate devices.
The mini monitors don't have a sync input so that would be an extra option available on the duo.
I can check this for you as I have a decklink duo in my system, but for the coming days I'm quite busy. I don't know how much time you have to get this resolved?
If it doesn't, it might save you spending money on something not resolving your issue.
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Ittaidv on 1/19/2016(UTC)
Ittaidv  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 10:16:49 AM(UTC)
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Wow, that would be very nice. By the 30th we should do the gig, I just called the guy and he said it better be perfect, and otherwhise we should tell him in advance :) In the worst case i will go rent a videomixer, but since i bragged so much about vmix, showed him all the options, I think both him and me would be disapointed :)
admin  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 10:24:52 AM(UTC)
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Hi,

Both preview and program in vMix use the same pipeline and thus identical delays.

But unfortunately with blackmagic cards both monitor and capture they both use their own buffering
mechanisms and its a bit of a black box we have limited control over in vMix.
A decklink duo may not help much with this either as they are essentially two separate devices on the same card.

Maybe explain the application that needs these multiple outputs and I will see if there is a better solution.
I know for one that using an AJA capture card both input and output will improve things as all
inputs and outputs share a single clock.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
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Ittaidv on 1/19/2016(UTC)
Mathijs  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 10:42:58 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Martin,

But might the ability to clock the decklink duo to external sync make them run in sync?
Ittaidv  
#15 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 10:47:50 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Martin!

The situation will be as follows:

We will have three fs700 camera's, who will connect to the vmix machine over sdi via a Yuan card. On top of that, some video and presentations will be sent from a laptop via sdi to the fourth input of the YUAN card. All 4 inputs will be mixed live by us. We will also play some video locally from the vmix machine and mix it in. Until here nothing unusual for us.

But, we need to provide a program output over the external 1 sdi (bm mini monitor 1) to the OB van outside the venue. At the same time, we should also send an 'aux' mix, being external 2 (mini monitor2), which would be just the 'overview camera', so in case they don't like our mixing, they can cut to it. Both outputs can use the same embedded audio in stereo.

Since it's speech and it's live broadcasted on national tv, the syncing should be really good. We were also told a million times to make sure whitebalance and all little details are ok :) When I showed him vmix he was sceptical, but he decided to give us a try. Up to us to show them Vmix is the best!
Ittaidv  
#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:00:45 AM(UTC)
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Mathijs wrote:
Thanks Martin,

But might the ability to clock the decklink duo to external sync make them run in sync?


That would be a nice solution as well!
richardgatarski  
#17 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:09:11 AM(UTC)
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Why don't you use two Fullscreen outputs instead? Just hang a couple of HDMI to SDI converters on them.
If you do Full HD you probably need a >= GTX 7-series video card.
Ittaidv  
#18 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:17:44 AM(UTC)
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richardgatarski wrote:
Why don't you use two Fullscreen outputs instead? Just hang a couple of HDMI to SDI converters on them.
If you do Full HD you probably need a >= GTX 7-series video card.



You think the syncing would be better from the fullscreen output? Since i'm not getting any information about dropped frames about that, it scares me a bit, but i can try :)
We have a gtx 950 in the system, so that should be fine I think.
richardgatarski  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:37:28 AM(UTC)
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AFAIK they Fullscreens are in sync (and require little extra CPU power).
Try with two monitors, and record them with a camera, load the recording into a video editor and check.
(Fullscreen lag a few frames behind the real thing, but its video is in sync with its audio. The slight delay does not matter for the OB guys, cause they are off the real thing in any case).
Ittaidv  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 19, 2016 12:37:38 PM(UTC)
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Reading about the quad card from blackmagic, i saw they also have some sort of genlock running:

DeckLink Quad is four independent SDI capture and playback cards in one! Includes four SDI inputs and four SDI outputs that can be independently switched between SD and HD video formats, as well as a common black burst/tri-sync input for all four channels. DeckLink Quad appears as four independent SDI cards to the computer, but only uses a single PCI Express slot. DeckLink Quad includes a built in watchdog timer under API control with bypass relays for a robust broadcast solution that automatically switches to bypass if power is lost, or software crashes. That's perfect for broadcast servers! Each SDI input and output can be a different video standard as they are all completely independent.

Is this what you were thinking off Martin? Since a 4in/output card would better suit our needs for future broadcasts. The AJA would only be used later for very big broadcasts, but since this is a one time job (for now), i'm also looking for cheaper solutions.

Richard: I'm going to run a test with the videocard outputs tonight, would be cool if it actually works, but i can already see the worried faces of the head of production if he sees it :) Still.. If it works, why not use it lol :)
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