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bucsatul  
#1 Posted : Sunday, March 22, 2015 9:17:16 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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Hi guys,

Any suggestions for good quality video cameras to be used with Vmix?

Number of cameras to be used: 4 fixed + 1 PTZ (to follow the ball)
Budget available: 1500 USD/camera
Location: inside sport venue 44x25x11h mt, soccer events (temperature might get down to 0 some times); fixed set-up (no mobility needed); mainly good artificial light conditions
Distance to Vmix station: max. 60 mt (no wireless, but cable connection to cameras)

Purpose: live broadcasting (on external output screen) of soccer game + Instant Replays. Replays should have a good quality at 50% slow motion (higher FPS I guess for the camera).

Other than that, I am waiting your suggestions (SDI, HDMI, etc).

Thanks,

Bucsatul



jip  
#2 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 5:59:10 AM(UTC)
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In brief, due to the distances up to 60m for cable runs, HDMI is pretty much out of the question. Therefore, the connections are preferably done with HD-SDI. There are not many HD-SDI cameras for the budget, so it might be necessary to use HDMI cameras with HDMI->SDI converters, which cost around 200USD each. Furthermore, if you want a high quality 50% slow motion, the connection should be 3G-SDI instead of "normal" HD-SDI. 3G-SDI can put 50p (60p in NTSC parts of the world ;) through instead of 50i.

Running vMix in 50fps sets higher requirements for the PC running the system.
bucsatul  
#3 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 6:17:32 AM(UTC)
bucsatul

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jip wrote:
In brief, due to the distances up to 60m for cable runs, HDMI is pretty much out of the question. Therefore, the connections are preferably done with HD-SDI. There are not many HD-SDI cameras for the budget, so it might be necessary to use HDMI cameras with HDMI->SDI converters, which cost around 200USD each. Furthermore, if you want a high quality 50% slow motion, the connection should be 3G-SDI instead of "normal" HD-SDI. 3G-SDI can put 50p (60p in NTSC parts of the world ;) through instead of 50i.

Running vMix in 50fps sets higher requirements for the PC running the system.


Hi Jip,
Thanks for your feedback.

Running PC will be configured accordingly and it has a separate budget.
I've seen that a 3G-SDI converter is around 100 USD.
Do you have some suggestions of good HDMI cameras for such sporting events?

Regards,

Emil.
jip  
#4 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 9:39:20 AM(UTC)
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bucsatul wrote:

Running PC will be configured accordingly and it has a separate budget.
I've seen that a 3G-SDI converter is around 100 USD.
Do you have some suggestions of good HDMI cameras for such sporting events?


I'm not that informed about detailed differences between different brands. Practically almost all cameras in that price point are without professional audio inputs. One starting point could be a top-end consumer Canon G30, which is essentially the same as the more professional XA20 model but without the audio handle. The cameras have a wifi remote control for functions like zoom, focus, and exposure, that could be useful with fixed "cold" cameras. There are many reviews in Youtube about the camera. Also, there are also some recent models from Panasonic at the same price point.

Others may give more suggestions to begin with.
thanks 1 user thanked jip for this useful post.
bucsatul on 3/23/2015(UTC)
bucsatul  
#5 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 1:13:59 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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Thank you Jip for your suggestions.

Does anyone have any experience with PTZ cameras for sports filming?
Something semi-professional maybe?

I am trying to implement an application to automatically follow the player or the ball so a PTZ camera would help a lot.

Thank you for any suggestions.

Emil.
jip  
#6 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 4:03:48 PM(UTC)
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bucsatul wrote:
Thank you Jip for your suggestions.

Does anyone have any experience with PTZ cameras for sports filming?
Something semi-professional maybe?

I am trying to implement an application to automatically follow the player or the ball so a PTZ camera would help a lot.

Thank you for any suggestions.

Emil.


I cannot help with PTZ cameras. However, the idea of automatically following the ball is very interesting. Are you planning to use some ready-made software for tracking and PTZ control?
There is a company that has implemented target following by a wrist band and sensors around the field: http://www.filmme.tv/. Of course that is not passive method like what you are planning.
bucsatul  
#7 Posted : Monday, March 23, 2015 4:45:09 PM(UTC)
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I know this company. In fact, I'm planning to use the very same location technology to track players and (hopefully) the ball. So, it's an active method based on bluetooth tags.
In any case, their system is more single person oriented. I am focused more on team sports and instant replays.

Emil.
jip  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 2:41:47 AM(UTC)
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bucsatul wrote:
I know this company. In fact, I'm planning to use the very same location technology to track players and (hopefully) the ball. So, it's an active method based on bluetooth tags.
In any case, their system is more single person oriented. I am focused more on team sports and instant replays.

Emil.


I haven't worked there or been in other contact with them, but based on the information they provide on the website it seems that they use some radio-based locating method that works at the licence-free 2.4GHz band. I think it is a lower-level tracking than mere bluetooth.
tnorrell  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:33:21 AM(UTC)
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1) You can get HDMI to SDI converters, for well under $100USD. I would suggest that you get more than you need, so that you have a spare when they start to break.

2) You've not provided us with enough information to help you select a good camera.
- What sport? The speed of the game is a factor.
- How big is the field/playing area in yards, meters, etc? This will inform how much zoom the lens needs to be capable of.
- How big is the building it's being played in? A big arena with super bright sports lights needs different features than a church gymnasium.
- What resolution are you hoping to stream at? 1080HD? 480SD?
- How are you handling audio? Will you need the cameras to embed audio, or are you using a mixer that feeds directly into your switcher?

3) Don't do anything fancy with your PTZ unless you can use a professional joystick controller unit (which you can't with your budget). Just set up some presets and switch between them using a laptop (not your switcher). any PTZ camera under $500 is going to have clunky movements, and really poor optics. The nicer cameras have ramp up and ramp down settings to make the motion less robotic and starts/stops less jarring to the viewer. Nicer cameras can offer 20x and 30x zoom. The best PTZs run $50k+, but have motions like a camera operator is running it. All the cameras I consider 'worth it' are above $1600USD, and that doesn't include the device to control it.

Feel free to reply to this message, and I'll do my best to help you locate reasonably priced camera units.

tdurhamjr  
#10 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:21:43 PM(UTC)
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As Tnorrel stated you can get the HDMI > SDI converters for $40-$50 USD on ebay and Amazon.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/...&hash=item3cf14b469d

I have GoPros on the basketball goals and feed the GoPro right into the HDMI>SDI converter so that I can run a long cable my streaming PC and feed into my SDI inputs in PC.

I have been very pleased with my Sony HDR CX900 cameras. But there are many good cameras on the market and ultimately you will have to determine all your very specific needs to determine the 1-3 best cameras for your needs.

I don't know anyone that has used this Soloshot for auto tracking but it seems to be very cool.
http://www.bhphotovideo....amp;is=REG&A=details

You can 3 axis gimbals fairly cheap for mounting a camera and control it with a joystick or other RC controller. The gimbals have improved alot in the last year or so. I recently purchased a Paralinx Triton for HDMI wireless but I have not played with it yet. Looking forward to doing a gimbal setup with this and seeing how it does.

You have lots of options. Just depends on how deep your pockets are and how much you are willing to tinker and come up with new ideas. The other guys here can certainly offer some great advice if you give them more details as tnorrell has mentioned.

Tim
bucsatul  
#11 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:47:23 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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jip wrote:

I haven't worked there or been in other contact with them, but based on the information they provide on the website it seems that they use some radio-based locating method that works at the licence-free 2.4GHz band. I think it is a lower-level tracking than mere bluetooth.


It is indeed a radio location based system (tags and antennas). It works on the 2,4 Ghz band of Bluetooth LE (or Bluetooth Smart). It's a new Bluetooth protocol that came out just a couple of years ago.

Emil.
bucsatul  
#12 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 1:57:20 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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tnorrell wrote:
1) You can get HDMI to SDI converters, for well under $100USD. I would suggest that you get more than you need, so that you have a spare when they start to break.

2) You've not provided us with enough information to help you select a good camera.
- What sport? The speed of the game is a factor.
- How big is the field/playing area in yards, meters, etc? This will inform how much zoom the lens needs to be capable of.
- How big is the building it's being played in? A big arena with super bright sports lights needs different features than a church gymnasium.
- What resolution are you hoping to stream at? 1080HD? 480SD?
- How are you handling audio? Will you need the cameras to embed audio, or are you using a mixer that feeds directly into your switcher?

3) Don't do anything fancy with your PTZ unless you can use a professional joystick controller unit (which you can't with your budget). Just set up some presets and switch between them using a laptop (not your switcher). any PTZ camera under $500 is going to have clunky movements, and really poor optics. The nicer cameras have ramp up and ramp down settings to make the motion less robotic and starts/stops less jarring to the viewer. Nicer cameras can offer 20x and 30x zoom. The best PTZs run $50k+, but have motions like a camera operator is running it. All the cameras I consider 'worth it' are above $1600USD, and that doesn't include the device to control it.

Feel free to reply to this message, and I'll do my best to help you locate reasonably priced camera units.



Thank you Tnorrel for your suggestions.

The information you requested I partially provided in my first post but let me write them again:

Sport: Indoor Soccer (max. 12 players)
Field dimmensions: 40x20 mt. The venue indoor limits are: 43x22 mt (so aprox. 1 additional meter more from the side lines)
Venue size: 43x22 mt. It is a dome shaped (tensiostatic metallic structure) building with max height (in the center) of 12 mt.
Resolution to stream: I'm thinking that 720 SDI would be enough. I would prefer though 60FPS to have nice slow motion replays
Audio: should be with camera embedded. In any case is less important.

PTZ: I'm looking into a single PTZ camera, but a professional one. Ramp up and down are important features that I'm considering. High value Zoom is not that important due to the proximity of the players. The budget for this camera should be around 2.500 USD. Can you recommend something at that money (without controller)?

Thanks again for your help.

Emil.
bucsatul  
#13 Posted : Tuesday, March 24, 2015 2:06:58 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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tdurhamjr wrote:
As Tnorrel stated you can get the HDMI > SDI converters for $40-$50 USD on ebay and Amazon.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/...&hash=item3cf14b469d

I have GoPros on the basketball goals and feed the GoPro right into the HDMI>SDI converter so that I can run a long cable my streaming PC and feed into my SDI inputs in PC.

I have been very pleased with my Sony HDR CX900 cameras. But there are many good cameras on the market and ultimately you will have to determine all your very specific needs to determine the 1-3 best cameras for your needs.

I don't know anyone that has used this Soloshot for auto tracking but it seems to be very cool.
http://www.bhphotovideo....amp;is=REG&A=details

You can 3 axis gimbals fairly cheap for mounting a camera and control it with a joystick or other RC controller. The gimbals have improved alot in the last year or so. I recently purchased a Paralinx Triton for HDMI wireless but I have not played with it yet. Looking forward to doing a gimbal setup with this and seeing how it does.

You have lots of options. Just depends on how deep your pockets are and how much you are willing to tinker and come up with new ideas. The other guys here can certainly offer some great advice if you give them more details as tnorrell has mentioned.

Tim


Hi Tim,

Do you offer slow motion replays with the GoPros? If yes, is it flickering?
I've checked out the Sony camera you use and it's looking very nice. Do you use them as fixed cameras or as a mobile pack?

The Soloshot I've seen a while ago when they got a nice amount of money on Kickstarter. It looks like a nice application but more for single person use.

In any case thanks for your help.

Emil.
tdurhamjr  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, March 25, 2015 11:51:41 AM(UTC)
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bucsatul wrote:

Hi Tim,

Do you offer slow motion replays with the GoPros? If yes, is it flickering?
I've checked out the Sony camera you use and it's looking very nice. Do you use them as fixed cameras or as a mobile pack?

The Soloshot I've seen a while ago when they got a nice amount of money on Kickstarter. It looks like a nice application but more for single person use.

In any case thanks for your help.

Emil.


Emil,
We do instant replays but not with the GoPros. However, I will do some test with another GoPro I have and see if there are any flickering issues and let you know.

I use the HDR CX900 as manned panning cameras. In football, one stayed wide and one stayed zoomed in to follow ball carrier. I only used one of these in basketball and used some cheaper Sony CX200 as fixed cameras (but I rarely used the video feed from these cameras. They were mainly a backup in case we lost the action with the pan camera).

Next year I want to put Gimbals with small HDMI cameras mounted above the goal so that we follow the action/ball like you see in the current NCAA play off games. It will be fairly easy to mount Gimbals with camera well above the goal and control the gimbal and camera zoom remotely. I already did this in our last football season but I did it with a pan/tilt setup that was servo driven and it just did not do well. However, using a remote control 3 axis gimbal will be very SWEET for following play action (and have remote zoom control on camera).

I want to do the same thing for football but instead of them being mounted permanently for the season, we will put them on large DIY tripods (approx 20' high). I have one Paralinx Titon to use on sideline roaming camera. We will likely run RG59 from both endzones to the pressbox so that we can hardwire the video feed from the end-zone cameras. It would be much easier to use the Titon wireless transmitters but at $1300 each I don't think that will happen :0

There is alot you can do if you work outside the box and you are willing to put stuff together to make it work :)

Tim
bucsatul  
#15 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2015 5:11:35 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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tnorrell wrote:
1)
Don't do anything fancy with your PTZ unless you can use a professional joystick controller unit (which you can't with your budget). Just set up some presets and switch between them using a laptop (not your switcher). any PTZ camera under $500 is going to have clunky movements, and really poor optics. The nicer cameras have ramp up and ramp down settings to make the motion less robotic and starts/stops less jarring to the viewer. Nicer cameras can offer 20x and 30x zoom. The best PTZs run $50k+, but have motions like a camera operator is running it. All the cameras I consider 'worth it' are above $1600USD, and that doesn't include the device to control it.

Feel free to reply to this message, and I'll do my best to help you locate reasonably priced camera units.



Hi Tnorell,

Can you please recommend some good PTZ cameras for a budget under 5.000 USD?
I'm looking for something for indoor use (soccer game) with a 60 FPS rate (for slow motion instant replay) and with some nice "operator like" movements (ramp-up and ramp-down settings would be nice).
The budget should cover only the camera not the controller, but the camera should give the possibility to control through software (automatic control to follow players fitted with tracking tags).

Thanks,

Emil.
tdurhamjr  
#16 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2015 5:28:27 PM(UTC)
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Emil,
Would it not be feasible get a good 3 axis gimbal and put a good camera on it. You can control the gimbal via RC remote or other types of remote? You could do it for WAY less than $5000.

Tim
tdurhamjr  
#17 Posted : Wednesday, April 1, 2015 5:34:16 PM(UTC)
tdurhamjr

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Emil,
Something like this
. A Gimbal can be mounted to a wall or any other fixed object. If you wanted freedom to move the camera about then you can go with a wireless transmitter like the Paralinx Triton if you did not want to run cable from the camera to your vmix station.

I have not forgot about testing the GoPro for flickering with Instant Replay. Been very busy but will try that in the next couple of days and let you know.

Tim
bucsatul  
#18 Posted : Thursday, April 2, 2015 2:20:10 PM(UTC)
bucsatul

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tdurhamjr wrote:
Emil,
Something like this
. A Gimbal can be mounted to a wall or any other fixed object. If you wanted freedom to move the camera about then you can go with a wireless transmitter like the Paralinx Triton if you did not want to run cable from the camera to your vmix station.

I have not forgot about testing the GoPro for flickering with Instant Replay. Been very busy but will try that in the next couple of days and let you know.

Tim


Hi Tim,

Thanks for your suggestion. A remote controlled Gimbal is a nice idea to consider. Still, I'd like to look into a good PTZ camera offers as well, just to have a comparison. Building something when you have some experience on the field (that's your case) is something and doing it from the start (my case) it's quite a different thing. I guess in my case it would be more intelligent to go for something sure, like the PTZ camera even if it's more expensive. But that remains to be seen...

Thanks anyhow and looking forward to see some pics and videos when you get it running.

Emil.
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