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shulambert  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2024 8:21:40 PM(UTC)
shulambert

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Hello vMix forum,

We want to live sessions running in our amphitheater and give the classrooms around to interact in live with the amphitheater in the same network.
The AV system is already deployed like this:

  • Amphitheater: 4 NDI PTZ 4K cameras

  • Classrooms: 80 monitors that already have one screen and one basic UHD camera having each a built-in microphone capable NDI. It means 80 guests participating on live on a session running inside the amphitheater.


Everything will be operated through NDI. So questions are:

  1. Can a computer or desktop having NVIDIA GeForce 12GB, 16GB Memory, 1TB SSD, CPU i9 last Gen be used with vMix 4K ?

  1. Which vMix settings to have a smooth output program and easy integration for this type of need knowing that the license can handle up to 1,000 NDI inputs ?


Thank you.
IceStream  
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2024 8:54:35 PM(UTC)
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@ shulambert

Good luck with that!
Although the vMix software itself supports up to 1000 Inputs, vMix does not recommend more than 8 of those to be 1080p60 NDI sources on their HEDT Reference Systems, so getting 84 on one system and/or network is a bit of a "pipe dream":
- https://www.vmix.com/pro...nce-systems.aspx#diamond
I might suggest that you may be better off using the ZOOM integration feature in vMix 27 to pull off what you are suggesting, and even then, you will need a substantial network and internet connection to succeed.


Ice
nikosman88  
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2024 10:40:31 PM(UTC)
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I also believe zoom or other room like software is the best solution. I dont think there exist a consumer pc and network that can handle 80 fullndi streams.1 1080p stream is about 150mbps bandwidth. So..80*150 if everyone same time send video is over and out of any consumer pc.
shulambert  
#4 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2024 11:55:29 AM(UTC)
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@IceStream and @nikosman88

Thank you for your feedbacks.

The goal here is not to give all 80 guest participants the possibility to participate in the same time.

The 4 NDI PTZ 4K cameras will always be used to capture the amphitheater.
The 80 other monitors will be used to display the output program, so only 2 or 3 guests can participate in the same time and the 77 or 78 guest cameras will not be used. But as vMix is supposed to handle up to 1000 NDI inputs, the operator can select from the 80 ones, which 2, 3 guests to select.
Let me prepare one illustration draft and share with you.
shulambert  
#5 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2024 12:42:28 PM(UTC)
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Illustration in attachment.

vMix_forum.png (181kb) downloaded 0 time(s).
nikosman88  
#6 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2024 2:37:06 AM(UTC)
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Ok for sending same pgm output in 80 monitors may you need a videohub like the ones that blackmagicdesign has to route anything you need in any of the 80 monitors without other overload to your pc. To be able for the vmix operator to bring in guests in program as soon as possible,you need to have all these input in vmix. But if you have all these inputs in vmix with video and audio,this will consume bandwidth and resources,even they "sit" in vmix inputs.So you cant have all these input in vmix inputs,you need to have for example some ndi inputs and to these one when you need another guest,right click and select which one you need to pgm out.
So yes in theory may you are ok with your setup
shulambert  
#7 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2024 12:02:12 PM(UTC)
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@nikosman88,

Well understood and thank you for this helpful feedback.
Then I will only select 4 permanent guests that can participate to the live session. We have the Osee GoStream Duet video mixer switcher, hope it will work if combined with HDMI splitter devices when combined with vMix 4K.

I have another question. If we decide stream the live session through Youtube or platforms like that, how many guests can participate to that live session and how to manage those interactions with our vMix ?

Thank you.
nikosman88  
#8 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2024 11:04:50 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: shulambert Go to Quoted Post
@nikosman88,

Well understood and thank you for this helpful feedback.
Then I will only select 4 permanent guests that can participate to the live session. We have the Osee GoStream Duet video mixer switcher, hope it will work if combined with HDMI splitter devices when combined with vMix 4K.

I have another question. If we decide stream the live session through Youtube or platforms like that, how many guests can participate to that live session and how to manage those interactions with our vMix ?

Thank you.


Ok. so to understarnd.
1.Ndi ptz cameras inside vmix
2.Ndi guests cameras inside vmix
3.Then external out from vmix with a capture card,pgm out signal inside the osee,pgm out osee and then with hdmi splitters to monitors. Right?
Do you mind about latency? Because this path is have a noticeable latency. The most easy way to get from vmix IMAG is to get an out from your GPU and then send it to hdmi splitters or other similar hw or ndi out 1 and then connect to the monitors but is difficult to handle 80 ndi out plus the ndi in. Not 0 latency but personally i find it is good enough for doing talk shows. And for 80 monitors,depending also for distance between pc and monitor,i cannot tell on how many hdmi splitters/amplifiers and type of cables you will need for signal to be able to arrive in all monitors correctly, if you choose gpu out for monitoring.
4.Also really important is the sound. The guests from the classrooms will only send video and audio or be able to hear back you or other people from the amphitheater and other classrooms? Because if they must have return audio,this audio has to be mix minus to avoid hearing from the monitor speakers and themselves as this will create echo
So.. need more study in what you need to do. Maybe better option not an ndi but a conference like program like zoom that is integrated in vmix
On how many guests. As many your system can handle. For interactions see 1-4 of this post
mavik  
#9 Posted : Friday, August 30, 2024 11:33:23 PM(UTC)
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Another thought I want to contribute.
Use NDI in multicast. So you can send out a mixed program to as many monitors as you like.

For the guests I can think of NDI router app. You create one output and just route the guest you want to have to it. That routed output is the 5th NDI input on the vMix machine. This could be an efficient way to allow your project idea.

Of cource, open for comments.

And you need a good comms line to know who is who and when to do what. But that can be planned in advance by a run down for example. It gets a bit tricky if all of the 80 want to contribute randomly.
shulambert  
#10 Posted : Saturday, August 31, 2024 10:16:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nikosman88 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: shulambert Go to Quoted Post
@nikosman88,

Well understood and thank you for this helpful feedback.
Then I will only select 4 permanent guests that can participate to the live session. We have the Osee GoStream Duet video mixer switcher, hope it will work if combined with HDMI splitter devices when combined with vMix 4K.

I have another question. If we decide stream the live session through Youtube or platforms like that, how many guests can participate to that live session and how to manage those interactions with our vMix ?

Thank you.


Ok. so to understarnd.
1.Ndi ptz cameras inside vmix
2.Ndi guests cameras inside vmix
3.Then external out from vmix with a capture card,pgm out signal inside the osee,pgm out osee and then with hdmi splitters to monitors. Right?
Do you mind about latency? Because this path is have a noticeable latency. The most easy way to get from vmix IMAG is to get an out from your GPU and then send it to hdmi splitters or other similar hw or ndi out 1 and then connect to the monitors but is difficult to handle 80 ndi out plus the ndi in. Not 0 latency but personally i find it is good enough for doing talk shows. And for 80 monitors,depending also for distance between pc and monitor,i cannot tell on how many hdmi splitters/amplifiers and type of cables you will need for signal to be able to arrive in all monitors correctly, if you choose gpu out for monitoring.
4.Also really important is the sound. The guests from the classrooms will only send video and audio or be able to hear back you or other people from the amphitheater and other classrooms? Because if they must have return audio,this audio has to be mix minus to avoid hearing from the monitor speakers and themselves as this will create echo
So.. need more study in what you need to do. Maybe better option not an ndi but a conference like program like zoom that is integrated in vmix
On how many guests. As many your system can handle. For interactions see 1-4 of this post


You are right, let me design a complete illustration and share it to you.
Thanks.
shulambert  
#11 Posted : Saturday, August 31, 2024 10:27:17 AM(UTC)
shulambert

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Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
Another thought I want to contribute.
Use NDI in multicast. So you can send out a mixed program to as many monitors as you like.

For the guests I can think of NDI router app. You create one output and just route the guest you want to have to it. That routed output is the 5th NDI input on the vMix machine. This could be an efficient way to allow your project idea.

Of cource, open for comments.

And you need a good comms line to know who is who and when to do what. But that can be planned in advance by a run down for example. It gets a bit tricky if all of the 80 want to contribute randomly.



Hello @mavik,

Thanks for this contribution. By "as many monitors as you like" you include the interactions between the amphitheater and the 80 monitors guests ?
mavik  
#12 Posted : Monday, September 2, 2024 5:56:18 PM(UTC)
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With multicast (and a network that is capable of multicast) you can send out the mixed feed and the load will just be the one feed although 80 receivers get it. That is the nature of unicast (80x the bandwidth) to multicast (1x the bandwidth). To be honest it epends a lot on the used gear and the network topology. But this is the basic I refered to.
Please remember that vMix is sending out unicast and you have to change it to multicast. You can use the NDI tools for this.
nikosman88  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, September 4, 2024 2:02:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: shulambert Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: mavik Go to Quoted Post
Another thought I want to contribute.
Use NDI in multicast. So you can send out a mixed program to as many monitors as you like.

For the guests I can think of NDI router app. You create one output and just route the guest you want to have to it. That routed output is the 5th NDI input on the vMix machine. This could be an efficient way to allow your project idea.

Of cource, open for comments.

And you need a good comms line to know who is who and when to do what. But that can be planned in advance by a run down for example. It gets a bit tricky if all of the 80 want to contribute randomly.



Hello @mavik,

Thanks for this contribution. By "as many monitors as you like" you include the interactions between the amphitheater and the 80 monitors guests ?


As i understand with multicast you can send out 1 source to multiple sources. For multiple different sources to be sent into vmix,i think that multicast will not work
shulambert  
#14 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2024 5:55:22 AM(UTC)
shulambert

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Hello,

In the scenario of HDMI-based output program and according to OREI company, using their HDMI Extender Splitter will handle 80 screen monitors without issue.

After some investigations regarding network switches capacity on a NDI-based scenario, I've seen switches that are supposed to handle a total non-blocking throughput of 88 Gbps, means 176 Gbps switching capacity.
At NDI website, a typical NDI stream consisting of 1080 60P video yields a data rate up to 150 Mbps per stream, and if we have 80 NDI PTZ cameras, technically it should 80 X 150 Mbps = 12 Gbps which seems be logically ok. Your suggestions are welcomed.

Now I don't know if it will work by selecting up to 4 PTZ cameras NDI source at vMix over 80 sources.
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