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WaltG12  
#1 Posted : Saturday, November 5, 2022 3:58:44 AM(UTC)
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As it stands now, "fade" only happens on one layer.

Ordinarily, this isn't an issue, or even noticeable.

However, when you're working with something with transparency, such as pictures or video with different aspect ratios (or even a "Transparent" color input), it creates issues.

With a crossfade, where the fade in occurs simultaneously with a fade out, it'd provide a smoother transition for those times when you'd otherwise see the "cut" that's meant to occur in the background.
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lanceyoder on 11/9/2022(UTC)
doggy  
#2 Posted : Saturday, November 5, 2022 4:05:18 AM(UTC)
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+1
WaltG12  
#3 Posted : Saturday, November 5, 2022 4:14:50 AM(UTC)
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For those who haven't experienced this, I made a video of the most jarring example--a fade between a Transparent color input and Color Bars.

You'll notice on the fade from the Transparent input to the Color Bars, it looks normal, because the fade is a fade in.

When going the other way, it's still only a fade in, and since the "in" is transparent, nothing fades at all--instead, it cuts at a time that's meant to be covered by the fade in, but isn't when the incoming layer has transparency where the outgoing layer doesn't.



This is, as I said, the most jarring example, but it's universal behavior. A crossfade would provide a smoother transition in these circumstances.
WaltG12  
#4 Posted : Saturday, January 28, 2023 7:47:43 AM(UTC)
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I was just toying with an idea I had to use Mix inputs in Multiview Layers to transition layers in and out (beyond the cut provided by turning them on/off), and I noticed that almost every transition is only a transition in, with no option to change it.

In theory, a Mix input with a Transparent on 1 side and the desired layer on the other should provide a way to seamlessly & smoothly bring a layer in and out.

In practice, the "in" is smooth, but the "out" is almost always a cut, as shown in my previous "fade" video.

While some options, like "Fade", lend themselves nicely to a cross, for others, it's impractical.

But it'd certainly provide a lot more potential if we could, at the very least, get "transition out" alternatives for everything that's only "transition in".

Especially with 26's expansion on the number of Mix inputs, it'd allow for a lot more creative uses (especially when paired with a transparent input).
admin  
#5 Posted : Saturday, January 28, 2023 12:44:09 PM(UTC)
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The effect you are looking for is not a crossfade, but to replace all transparent elements with black.
To do this, add a blank input, then add your input as a layer on top of that.

It will then transition as expected.
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eduardocfs on 1/28/2023(UTC)
WaltG12  
#6 Posted : Saturday, January 28, 2023 4:00:42 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
The effect you are looking for is not a crossfade, but to replace all transparent elements with black.
To do this, add a blank input, then add your input as a layer on top of that.

It will then transition as expected.


I have to disagree.

I specifically do not want to replace transparent elements with black--that's why they're transparent elements.

If I replace them with black, then, yes, they'll transition as expected, because the transitions (including the fade) are almost all transition ins, but then I'll be transitioning to black, which does nothing to achieve any goal that this could possibly achieve.

A crossfade and transition out options are exactly what I want, because I want things to go out, as well as in.

There's a reason I'm dealing in transparency, and that reason is not that transitioning to black is a suitable option that I somehow overlooked.

Absolutely nothing I've described or requested or demonstrated in this thread or elsewhere is solved by replacing transparent layers with black. In fact, many things would be entirely ruined by doing that, and, in some implementations, it's not even a possibility.

I find that response so disappointing and out of character that I can only assume you merely skimmed my comments and missed the point entirely.
admin  
#7 Posted : Saturday, January 28, 2023 5:44:26 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

I did indeed read your question in depth, and I did tests to confirm adding a black background does achieve the desired result in your examples.

Perhaps you could provide a different example of what you are looking for, as all the examples you mentioned would be solved with going with a black background.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
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eduardocfs on 2/23/2023(UTC)
eterelle  
#8 Posted : Monday, February 6, 2023 6:04:46 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
Hi,

I did indeed read your question in depth, and I did tests to confirm adding a black background does achieve the desired result in your examples.

Perhaps you could provide a different example of what you are looking for, as all the examples you mentioned would be solved with going with a black background.

Regards,

Martin
vMix


I'd imagine this to be an issue if you use vMix for key/fill output. Say i want to transition from one graphic(with some alpha) to transparent, this wouldn't currently work. Of course you could use overlays for that, but if you're using vMix only for graphics, which many poeple do, it would be nice to use the main mix for that.
WaltG12  
#9 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 3:32:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
Perhaps you could provide a different example of what you are looking for, as all the examples you mentioned would be solved with going with a black background.


I, again, strongly disagree, because it would transition to black, which is not transparent.

I further disagree that anything I said would be solved with a black background, because black is not transparent, but I apologize if that was unclear.

Obviously, the problem would be "solved" by filling the screen with no transparency whatsoever, because the problem is that the new input fades in and then it cuts to eliminate the bottom layer.

That could be done with black, blue, green, and even a full frame image.

The problem is that not everything ever fills the screen or is over a solid color.

Dynamic/animated/video backgrounds are extremely common. Hence transparency, which I keep mentioning for a reason. And that reason is that, as I keep mentioning, I'm dealing in transparency.

If you need specific examples, here's a fade of an 8x10 landscape image to a 4x6 portrait image over an animated background:



And here it is if I take your suggestion:



Yes, it fades now. That was never in question. I even acknowledged from the very beginning that the fade takes place on the top layer and if that layer covers anything, there's no problem.

But you'll notice that both look terrible.

What would look good? A crossfade, that fades in the new layer while simultaneously fading out the old layer so it doesn't just sit there prominently while something comes in on top of it until it just cuts out.

Obviously, if I were dealing in black, this wouldn't be an issue, but as I've now said multiple times, I'm not dealing in black--I'm dealing in transparency.

If you need another example, here's another one I'm dealing with now.

I want to transition from this title:

UserPostedImage

to this NDI input:

UserPostedImage

You'll notice that both are on transparent backgrounds, with the black in the first at a translucent alpha level.

This is by design. Because I want to be able to see the background that I am transitioning over.

If I make the background black on each, I will not be able to see the background I'm transitioning over.

As I've said multiple times now, I'm dealing in transparency. And black is not transparent.

Here's how it looks when I cut, using the same background as earlier:



It's a bit jarring for my taste, which is why I want it to Fade. Many would say that being less jarring is pretty much the entire point of a fade.

But here's how that fade looks:



Now, just to hammer my point home, since you requested examples, here's the best case scenario for how it'd look taking your suggestion of putting it over a black background instead of maintaining the transparency like I've specified as crucial since post 1:




Does that help?

When I'd said transparency was crucial and replacing the transparent layers with black wouldn't cut it, I'd kind of expected to be taken at my word without needing to prove that transparency was integral and that replacing it with black wouldn't cut it. Otherwise, I'd have to just replaced it with black in the first place, rather than even posting about this.
WaltG12  
#10 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 3:40:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: eterelle Go to Quoted Post
I'd imagine this to be an issue if you use vMix for key/fill output. Say i want to transition from one graphic(with some alpha) to transparent, this wouldn't currently work. Of course you could use overlays for that, but if you're using vMix only for graphics, which many poeple do, it would be nice to use the main mix for that.


It doesn't even need to be key/fill--there are plenty of inputs (titles, images, NDI) that have transparency built in. But, yes, keying is another.

And, yes, overlays are the only things in vMix that currently fade out. But you'd have to, in most cases, tie up 2 overlay channels, setting the one to fade out while simultaneously telling the other to fade in with the same duration.

If you're already using 3 Overlay channels for other things, that'd be a non-starter. It's also a needlessly convoluted option for something that should be attainable with a single Mix input--especially now that we have up to 15 of them to play with.
WaltG12  
#11 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 4:00:40 PM(UTC)
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I fixed the video links--thanks!
admin  
#12 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 4:04:04 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

Unfortunately looking at the examples I don't believe a cross fade will have the effect you are after.
You can see this by running a test where you manually adjust the Alpha for each colour input manually and put them on top of each other.

For example, set the two colour inputs to 128 Alpha in Colour Adjust for both. This would represent the mid point (50%) of the "crossfade" effect you are asking for.
You will see it results in both inputs becoming more transparent than a fade, and the background showing through, and I suspect that is not what you are after.
Also, if this "crossfade" were used for two inputs normally without a third background, it would result in both becoming significantly darker as the black would appear through.

This is the reason why Fade works the way it does, as transitions for alpha blending across multiple layers are far more complex than they appear.

I would suggest you try a video editing program like Premiere and produce an actual example of how you want it to work in practice and post that here.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
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eduardocfs on 2/23/2023(UTC)
WaltG12  
#13 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 4:26:57 PM(UTC)
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Nothing is going to be completely and utterly perfect, but it'd absolutely be less jarring than the cut out that's happening now.

At something like a 500ms fade, which was in use there, it wouldn't be on screen long enough for people to really register what they're seeing.

In fact, rather than test it with a stable alpha level, I went ahead and checked that first example, via script, using the Overlay method I mentioned a couple comments up.

Since Overlays are the only elements of vMix that fade out, a script that sets a simultaneous in and out is a great way to demonstrate proof of concept with real time animations.

Here's the 8x10 to 4x6 using an Overlay simulated crossfade:



Is it perfect? No, but it's certainly a lot closer than anything posted above.

If you pause it at about 6 seconds, you can see the midpoint thing you're talking about, but at 500 ms (again, the same duration as the previous videos), I can't say I caught it in real time.

The downside of this method is, again, that it only works if you have 2 free overlay channels (I often don't) and it's a hassle to set up.

But I would absolutely accept and benefit from this option, hence why I requested it. Even if you did see the midpoint in real time, I don't think one can really deny that it looks significantly cleaner and smoother than anything I posted above.

There's an old saying about perfect being the enemy of good.

For the pitfalls a crossfade has, I would still find it quite useful, and, in many cases, better than the current options.

EDIT:

Here's the pause I mentioned at 0:06:

UserPostedImage

Yes, you can see through both layers. But compared to the examples I posted above, it seems like an extremely small issue, especially since, again, it's quite quick in real time.
WaltG12  
#14 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 5:03:20 PM(UTC)
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Here's the second example. Same 500 ms, but a lot cleaner:



If you were watching this, would you really pick one of the earlier examples over this, just because you can see the background through both layers at the midpoint?

And, again, this is completely unedited and done entirely within vMix using this script

Quote:
API.Function("OverlayInput1Out")
API.Function("OverlayInput2In",Input:="FadeIn")


with both Overlay 1 and 2 set to Fade with a 500ms duration.

Perfect? No, but certainly a lot better and pretty much exactly what I'm looking for in a stock vMix transition.

Here it is, exactly the same as above, but in reverse:



Same script, same settings--I just swapped the input name on the input.

Contrast it with this 500ms stock fade where the purple remains fully visible behind the translucent black until it just poofs away:



Again, not "perfect", but significantly better.

This is what I want. It's why I've been asking for it.

Whatever visual anomalies this stands to potentially introduce are completely blown away by the benefits.

And it's not like I'm suggesting getting rid of the stock fade option for any other scenarios in which it's better. It's just that, as I feel I've demonstrated, I have a lot of scenarios where a "Fade" ends up being worse than a straight cut (which isn't so great itself) and I don't have the Overlay channels free to fix that like I did here, because I'm already using them for their intended purpose.

And I honestly doubt that in these examples, again made entirely in vMix with functionality that vMix already has, anyone would say they prefer the behavior of the standard fade in the original post as it pertains to these specific elements. Even if things are briefly less than ideal at the midpoint.

admin  
#15 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 8:19:31 PM(UTC)
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Ok thanks, I think this feature request is a bit clearer now.
It would essentially be a new transition option only available to a mix input or key/fill output.

It would have to be called something other than crossfade, to avoid confusing to users who would see it dip to black if they used it on an ordinary output expecting it to be a transition.

Something like "Alpha Layer Fade" perhaps.
WaltG12  
#16 Posted : Thursday, February 23, 2023 8:42:51 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
It would essentially be a new transition option only available to a mix input or key/fill output.


Could it also be available on the "Photos" input?

UserPostedImage

I like to turn off the black borders for custom backgrounds and the 8x19 to 4x6 issue comes up there with the current fade option.
ignatgrz  
#17 Posted : Friday, February 9, 2024 3:19:18 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: admin Go to Quoted Post
Ok thanks, I think this feature request is a bit clearer now.
It would essentially be a new transition option only available to a mix input or key/fill output.

It would have to be called something other than crossfade, to avoid confusing to users who would see it dip to black if they used it on an ordinary output expecting it to be a transition.

Something like "Alpha Layer Fade" perhaps.


If I understand this thread correctly this is also something I would like to see implemented.
My use case is using vMix for Fill/Key playout with an ATEM switcher. I managed to do a workaround by transitioning out the Key in ATEM Control, but that way I'm loosing overlays every time I want to fade from vMix to ATEM's program. Another issue with my workaround is having to use two different pieces of software, which I'd like to avoid.
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