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DWAM  
#1 Posted : Wednesday, January 4, 2017 8:07:18 PM(UTC)
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Hi Martin !

I'd like to see something like a "sub-group" of (camera) inputs that would be usable as an independant input for multiview for instance.

When using multiview (background with slides and speaker i.e.) it would allow to switch "within" the "speaker" zone directly and quickly. At the moment one has to set multiple multiview presets to achieve the same effect (or to open the multiview settings, go to the right tab, select the new entry which is much to long).

Another way of achieving this would be to have a "switchable" virtual input (which could be used in a multiview) and a way to send any input to this virtual input anytime very quickly.
Maybe it could function simply with a right-click on this virtual input allowing to choose the real input to use (like the NDI right-click list or the title editor list)

This could also be useful for a simple PiP overlaid or an NDI/external output (this could be very useful when we have to handle the big screen on stage to make sure we won't produce video loops). I don't know the english term for this, in french we say 'to output "diverged" signals'. Like on a 2ME switcher with an AUX output.

I have tried to use a "fake" virtual set function (with 4 cameras in it, next to each other) to achieve this (with a cut transition) but it required a lot of settings. I'm pretty sure there is a better way.

Hope this was "clear" enough...

Thank you very much for your already wonderful piece of software.

Bien à vous tous,
Guillaume
richardgatarski  
#2 Posted : Thursday, January 5, 2017 4:53:47 AM(UTC)
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Guillaume,

Perhaps not ideal, but you could create SetMultViewOverlay Shortcuts to change the source for your PiP.

I just posted the Stereoids for shortcuts: soft, virtual, and named Feature request. If you have the time, take a look. It might be an alternative solution to some of your needs.
DWAM  
#3 Posted : Thursday, January 5, 2017 6:03:55 AM(UTC)
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Thanks Richard

I dropped an eye on this quickly. Not sure this fits my needs. I usually use all 4 overlay channels to display titles, lowerthirds, social, sponsors and logos, timers or any textual or graphics informations. Besides I very often use cropping on my camera inputs within my multiview presets.
I'll try to post a sketch with more details soon.

Have a good day!
DWAM  
#4 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 8:47:48 AM(UTC)
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Coming back to this feature request to try to explain better. Basically it's like a Group on an audio mixer or a basic 2ME feature.

So my request is to have a new input type: I call it "Sub Group Virtual Input"

When you select this input, you must choose others inputs that will compose this Sub-Group. Let's say you select Cam1 Cam2 Cam3 and ideally you can also select Audio inputs or Audio Buses (A or B i.e.)

How to use it? 2 suggestions
- Right-click this input (like NDI sources) and select which sub-group entry this input will output
- Or like virtual sets, this virtual input has a special appearance allowing to click on buttons to select which source to output
- (optionnally it could use triggers and shortcuts like other inputs)

So now you have set this special input and you now how to use it. What can you do with it?
Well you can use it in many ways...

- in multiviews (or multiview titles) so that you can switch easily inside to build dynamic and more flexible multiviews
- as an independent switchable NDI output (possibly associated with a different audio than Master)
- as an independent switchable External output (possibly associated with a different audio than Master)
- as an independent switchable input in Virtual Sets (to be able to have several talents)

Some use cases :

- 2 streams with different video switching AND/OR different audio (multilingual support)
- 2 simultaneous recordings with different switching options (compulsary for politics)
- stream/record regular program out AND output another switching to videoprojector for the venue audience
- stream/record regular program out AND output another switching to monitors on a TV studio set
- simplify the setups for using Skype, Zoom or any videoconferencing system and WebRTC
- simplify the configs for more dynamic multiviews (without multiplying the number of multiviews with different static configs)
- avoid the risk of video loops when you shoot a stage with a big screen fed by vMix
- etc...

I'd like to have Martin's opinion about this, but I have the feeling that it wouldn't be so difficult to implement because it looks like what's already developped for virtual inputs and virtual sets.

The main point is: because this sub-group (multi entry) virtual input is usable like any other single inputs, it gives a lot of flexibility when defined to an output AND without the need to be in PREVIEW or PROGRAM.

So if you like the idea and consider it would be a great added-value for vMix, don't forget to +1

Guillaume
DWAM  
#5 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 9:16:27 AM(UTC)
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I forgot to mention that this new input should never go to PROGRAM directly (to avoid audio issues).
richardgatarski  
#6 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 10:01:53 AM(UTC)
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I think I understand your idea better now, but still considering that my feature request with soft (and virtual) keys would allow you to do the same thing. Main advantages would be left-click (easier) and more functions (one shortcut can do multiple actions). Main dis-advantage would be not as intiutive (adding shortcuts required).

For example, if you would like to do a sub-group switch between Cam1, Cam2, and Cam3 for External2 you create three shortcuts. As is now for example F1, F2, and F3 (with virtual shortcuts they could be named "SubCam1" etc). Each shortcut performs a SetOutputExternal2. Then make three virtual copies of your camera inputs, and for each define its click-action to be the corresponding shorcut. Viola! If you want to be really cool you could add a graphics MultiView layer on each of the virtual inputs, to distinguish them from the originals.

Even so, I thought the design idea mimicing the Virtual Set interface is a nice one.
DWAM  
#7 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 10:49:43 AM(UTC)
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Not quite the same thing Richard, especially considering audio support but I see better what you mean also... ;o)

I still think it would be much easier/quicker and more flexible to configure using my solution.

Also you could have multiple Sub Group Virtual Inputs: one for NDI out with Audio Bus B, one for Multiviews without audio, one for EXTERNAL 2 with Audio Bus A for example. And you could also use Shortcuts or Triggers like for others inputs.

It's more like a 2ME switcher where you can have 2 different switchings for multiple usage (with audio routing)
IceStream  
#8 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 11:06:18 AM(UTC)
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+ 1

Although I am not completely clear on your workflow description, I think having those kinds of capabilities within one PC would take vMix to the next level of professionalism.


Ice
DWAM  
#9 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 11:22:05 AM(UTC)
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IceStream wrote:
I think having those kinds of capabilities within one PC would take vMix to the next level of professionalism.


You're right! But why not ? It's so close...

basically what's the difference between Tricaster and vMix?
The hardware or computing capacity? No, well not really
Such features ? Yes
richardgatarski  
#10 Posted : Saturday, January 14, 2017 11:43:55 AM(UTC)
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+1

I hope Martin can include the audio part, perhaps easier now after the ASIO implementation (guess the reason for only having bus A and B was how vMix was built when buses was introduced).
Don't consider these sub-groups to be an alternative to soft shortcuts, just a use case.
Hallaman  
#11 Posted : Thursday, February 2, 2017 7:48:18 PM(UTC)
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+1

I also ++ on the Audio selection for embedding with the Master/External outputs. I have a case where I want to send program or multiview using NDI but the audio needs to be mix minus and/or mix without fx.

JB
JimJacobs  
#12 Posted : Thursday, February 2, 2017 9:36:40 PM(UTC)
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This is essentially creating an AUX Bus for video control as another output such as a projector or on-set monitor, so I'm a ++1 on this one.
DWAM  
#13 Posted : Friday, February 3, 2017 4:16:55 AM(UTC)
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Jim

yes it's like an AUX (it's written in the title) but it should stick to being an "input" (that you can affect to an output)

This way, not only can you use it like a regular AUX, but it can also be used for internal switching sent to the regular output.
And being an "input", one can create many of them for several different purposes (when an AUX is unique or always limited in number depending on the device)

Thanks for the +1

Guillaume
admin  
#14 Posted : Friday, February 3, 2017 4:57:35 AM(UTC)
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The switchable virtual input idea is close to what you can do with the blank virtual set template.
Add it and select the Setup tab to quickly switch in and out any input to one of the 5 layers.

The SetMultiViewOverlay shortcut can also change these inputs (or any inputs setup on a particular input)

Further, it is worth pointing out that the essentially every input in vMix is a mini M/E bus already, so really the question
is how to make this easier to control live.

One idea I have considered is adding a "Matrix" tab, that has buttons for every possible routing configuration.
I.E there would be rows for the four outputs (Fullscreen 1, Fullscreen 2, Recording, External 2)
but it could also have selectable input rows, where you can see the MultiView (or M/E) selections for a particular input and switch them using the buttons.

Regards,

Martin
vMix

thanks 1 user thanked admin for this useful post.
sinc747 on 5/19/2017(UTC)
DWAM  
#15 Posted : Friday, February 3, 2017 7:06:42 AM(UTC)
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Many thanks for this reply Martin

Quote:
The switchable virtual input idea is close to what you can do with the blank virtual set template.
Add it and select the Setup tab to quickly switch in and out any input to one of the 5 layers.


Yes I have already done this using blank virtual set (and this is what inspired me for the new input type) but:
- it takes a long time to setup
- its only use case is reduced to multiview
- it cannot be routed to EXTERNALS, nor to be seen as an NDI source
- it doesn't handle audio independently

Quote:
The SetMultiViewOverlay shortcut can also change these inputs (or any inputs setup on a particular input)


Also tried this but shortcuts are convenient when you always produce the same type of content with a regular setup.
As far as I'm concerned (I guess I'm not the only one), I never do twice the same project: I can do a musical concert one day, then a political congress, then a surgery operation, then a corporate conference, then a TV show on an exhibition venue... Sometimes I must feed big screens on stage (without video loops), sometimes TV monitors for on stage monitoring with various input feeds for talents, sometimes I use 1 single vMix or several ones. Sometimes I have 3 cams, the next day I have 7. So trying to use shortcuts for so many different setups and workflows is more confusing than convenient.
I even bought an Akai Mini to try to simplify this, but it's even worse. We need to visualize what we do.

Besides shortcuts are not a solution for the cons above either.

Quote:
so really the question is how to make this easier to control live.


I gave 2 suggestions for this at #4 http://forums.vmix.com/d...ts&m=33112#post33112
My preference would go to what you did for NDI sources > right-click on the virtual input + select. Quick, efficient and won't use extra room.
Besides with triggers, we could define scenarios (especially for big screens on stage), i.e.:
- when I choose cam1 (for program) I want cam2 on stage (to avoid loops)

Quote:
One idea I have considered is adding a "Matrix" tab, that has buttons for every possible routing configuration.
I.E there would be rows for the four outputs (Fullscreen 1, Fullscreen 2, Recording, External 2)
but it could also have selectable input rows, where you can see the MultiView (or M/E) selections for a particular input and switch them using the buttons.


Sounds good... Yep the matrix concept is underlying.

Where would this "tab" be ?
Would it allow to be used on demand (once configured) without opening global or inputs "settings"?
Could it manage audio routing (with mix-minus - what I suggested by associating with A or B bus only) aswell?

I'm not sure I "clearly and exactly" see what you mean, but maybe other guys will. Let's talk about this all together...

Maybe I should draw a worflow synoptic for easier communication (my english is not good enough for expressing or getting every subtleties)

BTW thank you very much for your interest

Bien à toi,
Guillaume
richardgatarski  
#16 Posted : Friday, February 3, 2017 9:42:05 AM(UTC)
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I very much like what Guillaume is after, and share his concerns regarding doing it with the currently available options. But I am not really sure about how it would look like in practice. And while the matrix idea sounds very promising, I guess it would take quite a lot of development efforts as well as thoughts about the control interface.

Meanwhile, and please excuse me but I am not trying to hi-jack this topic, I still think that at least some of the needs discussed here could easily be solved as "Soft shortcuts". Please take a look at the demo video I just posted in the Feature request "Stereoids for shortcuts: soft, virtual, and named".

IceStream  
#17 Posted : Friday, February 3, 2017 10:01:45 AM(UTC)
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admin wrote:

One idea I have considered is adding a "Matrix" tab, that has buttons for every possible routing configuration.
I.E there would be rows for the four outputs (Fullscreen 1, Fullscreen 2, Recording, External 2)
but it could also have selectable input rows, where you can see the MultiView (or M/E) selections for a particular input and switch them using the buttons.



I think this is worth serious discussion.
Like DWAM, I am not 100% clear on the actual layout, but the concept is very appealing.
As I have described in the past, all of my PROGRAM bus of my default presets are blank M/E Inputs (typically 10 Inputs, first 8 for Main Programming, 1 Black and 1 Colour Bars) that I populate with required additional Inputs such as Cameras, Videos and/or Media and upstream Overlays, this way I am not re-mapping all my main "Shortcuts" everytime for different set-ups, I am simply re-configuring each M/E Input according to the "show" requirements. Having a visual "Matrix" tab or window to do this routing more efficiently gets a big + 1 from me.


Ice
DWAM  
#18 Posted : Friday, February 3, 2017 10:47:26 AM(UTC)
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As I explained in Richard's feature request, Martin from zenvideo.co.uk created a small app for NDI. It's called "NDI Router" and it's basically a 6x2 video hub for NDI.
http://zenvideo.co.uk/ndi.htm#Router

My wish is basically that we could have a special vMix "INPUT" that could act the same way. Being for example a 4x1 hub. And not being restricted to NDI only.
Fill it with switchable audio and video inputs and use its virtual output to other inputs like multiview or physical outputs.
Also I think this shouldn't be able to go to PROGRAM (unless used via other regular inputs). Ever!
DWAM  
#19 Posted : Monday, March 6, 2017 11:38:56 AM(UTC)
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Hi

I may have found another way to do something similar, i.e. switch to multiple destinations, that is maybe easier to implement into vMix.

If I'm right, this would require only one more command in the API. Check: https://forums.vmix.com/....aspx?g=posts&t=9621

Thanks
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