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alexandrelinhares1  
#1 Posted : Friday, July 21, 2017 3:38:14 PM(UTC)
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Hi,
Im wondering if a mini pc runnig an Intel Atom Z8350 with 4GB of ram and a usb3 capture card could encode 1 stream of NDI.
SportsNetUSA.net  
#2 Posted : Saturday, July 22, 2017 3:35:27 PM(UTC)
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If you currently have that equipment, try it and see how it works. Otherwise, an Intel Atom Z8350 may not have enough horsepower to do what you want.

From NewTek, for NewTek Connect

Quote:
Minimum System Requirements:
64-bit Microsoft® Windows 7 operating system (OS) or better
Intel i5 Sandy Bridge CPU or better with integrated GPU (NVIDIA discrete GPU, with 2GB video memory or better recommended)
8GB system memory
Gigabit connection or better
Display with screen resolution of 1024 x 768 or higher
alexandrelinhares1  
#3 Posted : Saturday, July 22, 2017 5:31:43 PM(UTC)
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SportsNetUSA.net wrote:
If you currently have that equipment, try it and see how it works. Otherwise, an Intel Atom Z8350 may not have enough horsepower to do what you want.

From NewTek, for NewTek Connect

Quote:
Minimum System Requirements:
64-bit Microsoft® Windows 7 operating system (OS) or better
Intel i5 Sandy Bridge CPU or better with integrated GPU (NVIDIA discrete GPU, with 2GB video memory or better recommended)
8GB system memory
Gigabit connection or better
Display with screen resolution of 1024 x 768 or higher




How is the Birdog doint it? cuz im sure is not runing an i5 or 8gb ram
SportsNetUSA.net  
#4 Posted : Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:21:06 PM(UTC)
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Not sure of how BirdDog is doing it, though I'm sure many would just like to see them get the product done and delivered. However, their unit has to be based on NDI specs. And those specs call for a minimum CPU.

An ASUS VivoMini VC65R-G039M is approximately 7.5in/190.5mm x 2.2in/55.88mm x 7.5in/190.5mm and it uses an i5-6400T. Intel NUC Kit NUC6i7KYK Mini PC is 8.3 x 4.6 x 1.1 inches with an i7.

So there are small, powerful mini PC units available.
DWAM  
#5 Posted : Saturday, July 22, 2017 6:41:30 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
How is the Birdog doint it? cuz im sure is not runing an i5 or 8gb ram

That's certainly the reason why it's taking so long. They had to develop a chip powerful enough to handle it without overheating and make it reliable.
kane  
#6 Posted : Saturday, July 22, 2017 7:15:12 PM(UTC)
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BirdDog is building a FPGA to do the NDI CODEC in hardware. My understanding is that FPGA development is difficult.

If you are looking for a small device to do HDMI to NDI, I'd recommend a Connect Spark HDMI. Probably cheaper (certainly easier) than building a PC + USB3 capture device.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
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alexandrelinhares1 on 7/23/2017(UTC)
zenvideo  
#7 Posted : Sunday, July 23, 2017 3:04:32 AM(UTC)
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SportsNetUSA.net wrote:
However, their unit has to be based on NDI specs. And those specs call for a minimum CPU.

The minimum CPU spec is based on using the standard NewTek NDI libraries (on PC, Mac or Linux). If you go a different route, as Kane has said, and take the more difficult low-level coding approach to implementing the codec, then there's all sorts of potential processor options (and pitfalls). However, BirdDog are aiming to support "full-spec NDI" rather than NDI-HX as in the Connect Spark, so it depends on what you require as to what's the best option.
Speegs  
#8 Posted : Sunday, July 23, 2017 3:12:01 AM(UTC)
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If the ndi spark is good enough I'd say don't build it. Buy an appliance perfect for the job vs computer which you have to maintain. Same goes for birddog, I see the reason to roll your own is only if the dedicated device(s) is over priced. You might have to wait about a month to know if this new stuff lives up to expectations.

I think the price is good for a new product and no doubt will drop when NDI 4 is released that does something even better.
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alexandrelinhares1 on 7/23/2017(UTC)
alexandrelinhares1  
#9 Posted : Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:06:57 AM(UTC)
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kane wrote:
BirdDog is building a FPGA to do the NDI CODEC in hardware. My understanding is that FPGA development is difficult.

If you are looking for a small device to do HDMI to NDI, I'd recommend a Connect Spark HDMI. Probably cheaper (certainly easier) than building a PC + USB3 capture device.

Kane Peterson
NewTek



I just wonder how much compression is aplied in to NDI HX
IceStream  
#10 Posted : Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:24:38 AM(UTC)
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@ alexandrelinhares1

I think it depends on what you mean by "how much compression"...
There is already compression on NDI, and then further compression on NDI HX, but my understanding is that NDI is sort of "breaking the rules" of standard IP and Broadcast protocols and thereby permitting it to maintain a higher visual appearance within that compression. But in direct answer to your question, I believe it is by a factor of 10, that is roughly 100 Mb of bandwidth requirements for each NDI source to 10 Mb of bandwidth requirements for each NDI HX source. Compression for sure, but the promise is that it will be virtually unnoticeable to most viewers, proof will be in the pudding I guess.
(check out PTZOptics recent interview with NewTek's Andrew Cross)

Ice
DWAM  
#11 Posted : Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:26:06 AM(UTC)
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Bom dia Alex

NDI|HX is H.264 basically, with lower latency for transport when wrapped in NDI protocol.
High quality NDI|HX is 10 Mbits

Guillaume
DWAM  
#12 Posted : Sunday, July 23, 2017 10:28:52 AM(UTC)
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Main interest of NDI|HX is it's hardware compression based on GPU or cheap H.264 chips.
However the wrapping in NDI protocol is specific so that it conforms to NDI features
DanMiall  
#13 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 6:55:47 AM(UTC)
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Hi All, I think it is about time I became active on this forum!

BirdDog is using a custom hardware approach to processing video into NDI, this is based on an FPGA processor which means it is low power, high performance and can be made very compact. Getting anything to work on an FPGA is specialist work, and video is probably the most specialised of FPGA applications. No doubt it has taken longer than we or anyone wanted for us to produce BirdDog, but the fact remains it is the ONLY hardware implementation of the 'core', high quality, i-frame only NDI protocol in operation. We are a new company so we have developed everything from the ground up here, the team has literally been working day and night.

The recent announcements of NDI3 are great news for everyone, it allows IP workflows to reach further out into the production. NewTek's boxes really are great at that part of the equation, areas where you would usually have to use traditional h.264 network streaming or wireless links can now be seamlessly integrated into your production with lower latency than ever before. These new NewTek devices, along with announcements from various PTZ manufacturers all utilise the NDI|HX subset of NDI3, which is the 'high efficiency' compression scheme, without going into details, as magical as NDI is, something has to give when you reduce compression by tenfold, hence NDI 'core' is still very much part of the NDI3 specifications.

I would go as far as to say that people wishing to use NDI on their main production cameras on commercial productions that are used to using HDMI or SDI cameras are not likely to want to use the new NewTek Spark devices as their primary feed, and similarly people wanting to send video over a sub-par network or WiFi will be disappointed with BirdDog Studio NDI operating with NDI 'core' technology.

I genuinely see a place for all these currently announced products in the same production with no real overlap.

Onto more things BirdDog:

At shipping (this week for 'pre-orderers'!) we will support the following features, with a huge amount more to come over a short period of time (I know we have a long way to go to make you all believe our timelines!)

- 1920x1080 HDMI and SDI Video input (including Interlaced and progressive rates, up to 60p, Auto-syncing to input rate)
- NDI hardware encoding in realtime
- On-board Tally, fully integrated with NDI
- Power over Ethernet

Us here at BirdDog are truly excited about NDI and are very optimistic about it and our future in the world of IP production. Any questions, feel free to ask! Sorry about the long post, I'll be more brief in future!

Dan Miall
Founder & CEO, BirdDog.
thanks 11 users thanked DanMiall for this useful post.
DWAM on 7/24/2017(UTC), ask on 7/24/2017(UTC), JW on 7/24/2017(UTC), dark_ata on 7/24/2017(UTC), avsoundguy on 7/24/2017(UTC), mjgraves on 7/24/2017(UTC), SportsNetUSA.net on 7/24/2017(UTC), alexandrelinhares1 on 7/24/2017(UTC), corporatejames on 7/24/2017(UTC), stevespaw on 7/25/2017(UTC), Amokka on 7/25/2017(UTC)
DWAM  
#14 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 7:06:01 AM(UTC)
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Thank you Dan and welcome to the vMix forum!
JW  
#15 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 8:49:41 AM(UTC)
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DanMiall wrote:
Sorry about the long post



I can't get enough information about NDI products :)


Do you also have plans to sell cheaper basic SDI-NDI and HDMI-NDI converters in the future?
dark_ata  
#16 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 10:05:59 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for the information, do you have in the road map a bird dog with intercom, the tally is great but speak with the cameraman is important.

The for the spark I think that is more important, a wireless intercom is very expensive and have all in one is very interesting, we sure that buy >3
mjgraves  
#17 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 11:51:19 AM(UTC)
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DanMiall wrote:
Getting anything to work on an FPGA is specialist work, and video is probably the most specialized of FPGA applications.


Absolutely! My former employer (Pixel Power) developed broadcast graphics system based upon some of the most capable FPGAs offered at the time. They implemented multi-stream (8x) MJPEG with alpha and audio, encoding, decoding and compositing. All done in real-time for live broadcast applications.

It's seriously specialized work. The resulting intellectual property is a serious asset.

While there are "mezzanine" compression schemes that have found a home in professional production, it's unclear where HDI|HX will fit. It will certainly be widely used, the question is by whom?

It's a vast market out there. There's room for all manner of solutions.
Amokka  
#18 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 12:59:20 PM(UTC)
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DanMiall wrote:
Hi All, I think it is about time I became active on this forum!


Agree, but never the less you are welcome and your attention to this forum is much appreciated.

DanMiall wrote:

At shipping (this week for 'pre-orderers'!) we will support the following features, with a huge amount more to come over a short period of time (I know we have a long way to go to make you all believe our timelines!)


Again, Agree.
When you set out to develop this product, I never doubted that you had a lot and difficult work to do, and I don't blame you for getting behind schedule.
With the new NDI protocol, it was obvious that a product like the one you announced would require either a custom chip or FPGA programming to be designed.
Challenging, difficult work at best and skilled engineers in this area of expertise are scarce.

However, I'll also take this opportunity to flame you a bit.
The delays combined with lack of updates/communication silence is just about the most common recipe for failed projects.
I admit to have been inches away from pre-ordering several boxes from you, but knowing the difficulties you were facing combined with the lack of updates for so long, made me loose faith in your ability to successfully put this product to market.
I also admit to have vented my lack of confidence in you at several, even public occasions. I may even have predicted your complete failure.

Never the less, I am very pleased to see that you have proved me wrong and I sincerely hope your business will grow and prosper.
I think it is a very important milestone in the life of NDI and video production technology.

Now that you have nailed down the biggest hurdles and started shipping, I'm also looking forward to see new features implemented and maybe even additional models reach the market - and of course; at a reduced price level :-)
Not to mention that I hope some camera vendors will license your work and put NDI directly into their cameras.

Don't be a stranger around here.

/JonL

alexandrelinhares1  
#19 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 5:20:03 PM(UTC)
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Intercom ona NDI work flow would be great!! On Birdog or Spark would be perfect!!
DanMiall  
#20 Posted : Monday, July 24, 2017 7:41:11 PM(UTC)
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Thanks All,

Firstly to address the communications side of things, for that I apologise - to bring a product to market from scratch (hardware design, including building a multichannel 3G-SDI/HDMI i/o interface from scratch, firmware, FPGA (NDI) IP and UX experience) takes a lot of work, the team, including myself have literally been working around the clock since we announced BirdDog Studio NDI and the part that suffered in the push to bring the product to market was communications - this is something that we are addressing and starting very soon you will see a lot more activity from us in that space. It was never about wanting to be 'radio silent', just a (human) bandwidth issue.

In terms of features, we have a full roadmap of features and products, it's an important distinction that the product is called Studio NDI and the brand is BirdDog... to talk specifically about features, I'm afraid would line all of us for another round of discussions on time to market, etc. To be sure the hardest part of bringing Studio NDI to market has been developing the only hardware-based NDI CODEC available from scratch, that took an enormous effort and is now 'done', this means additional features and functions will not suffer anywhere near as long development times. Suffice to say that we are aware of the challenges in modern productions in terms of team collaboration, quality, cost of equipment and ease of use!

Thanks

Dan

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