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nashenden  
#1 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:15:28 PM(UTC)
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Hi,

I'm looking to semi-permanently rig a location for filming of events. Cost and robustness of cameras will be an issue. In the 'day job' I use a fair few IP security type cameras. Assuming one can live with the lack of control over the image relative to a 'proper' broadcast cam (white balance, black levels etc), are these likely to be a viable vMix option? I'm guessing the issue may well be getting a high enough bitrate so that fast movement (either panning of the camera or the subject moving) doesn't cause momentary 'blockiness' while the CODEC recovers?

Any practical experience in this area - or things to do / avoid? Thanks in advance.
dionv  
#2 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:33:11 PM(UTC)
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What kind of connection will you be using from the cameras to vMix?

I was playing around with my D-Link IP PTZ camera and have discovered that it seems to be the bastard stepchild of the line. I can find commands and codes for the model before mine, and for the model after mine, but not for my model. So things like RTSP or RTMP just don't work easily with my camera.

Not a big deal for me as I was just messing about, but something to consider.

Dion
Ittaidv  
#3 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:58:05 PM(UTC)
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I would never dare to arrive with security cams, and ask money for a job. But that's personal preference I guess. Even when no money is involved, looking like an amateur could get you replaced by a 'pro' once there is budget for it in the long term. So only when it's a strict hobby project I would consider it.

Apart from that: You can get better image quality for not so much more money when using small mirorless camera's. Panasonic and Sony make some good ones which are not super expensive. Even an entry level DSLR will nowadays produce images that are close to broadcast quality provided there is enough light.

If you use old and cheap lenses on them with an adaptor, and pimp them a bit with a cheap DSLR rig, they look more pro, and you will have more control over parameters, sharpness and image quality.

Even by using older FD lenses (they're really cheap on ebay) you will nail focus, instead of relying on autofocus.

Also a dslr or mirorless camera will provide you with standard mounting options for a tripod, and a screen where you can preview your cadrage.

Compared to network cables, sdi cables are a bit more expensive. Also capture cards and hdmi to sdi converters are needed. So compared to security cams a dslr solution is more expensive.
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nashenden on 2/17/2017(UTC)
IceStream  
#4 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:22:09 PM(UTC)
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@ nashenden

As kind of already stated, it depends on your definition of "viable"...
Will it work? Yes, I believe many have used and experimented with that stuff, the issue might be being able to "capture" the camera image in vMix, many multicam security systems might have proprietary software and atypical compression codecs to manage everything and it might be a challenge to break away from that with some systems.
Is the quality good? Again, that's a matter of subjective opinion in some cases, it might be "good enough" for your particular scenario, it might not. As Ittaidv implies, it typically won't be "Professional", but if it meets your needs and budget is a determining factor, it might be the only solution.
In the end, it is what it is and if it works for you then "go for it", but the best advice is to test, test and test again to figure out what will work best for you in your situation.


Ice
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nashenden on 2/17/2017(UTC)
mashynewie2  
#5 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 4:33:33 AM(UTC)
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I have successfully connected a cheap IP security camera to vMIX.

It looks clear but the cheapness in the camera shows weird compression artifacts in the picture.

If you used a good quality camera it could be ok.

Not sure about syncing audio/video with an IP camera, does the latency vary???

If it was me, I would use better cameras unless it's something you wish to experiment with.

And use wired Ethernet so that you don't suffer from WIFI drops
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nashenden on 2/17/2017(UTC)
nashenden  
#6 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 5:22:24 AM(UTC)
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Ittaidv wrote:
I would never dare to arrive with security cams.... Even when no money is involved, looking like an amateur could get you replaced by a 'pro' once there is budget for it in the long term. So only when it's a strict hobby project I would consider it.


For this application lack of budget really is the key - and leaving the cameras in place at the venue may be a requirement due to so freaky access limitations. I get that SLR is better, but the cost of the cam plus lens plus capture card, across maybe 4 - 6 channels, would make this non viable before I started. This is a strictly 'try it and see' environment - they won't even pay for a hobbyist stills photographer, let alone 'proper' coverage, so its very much prove it for free or don't do it! We are also talking fairly long session - maybe 8 hours. Will SLR/ mirrorless cope, have all the overheating issues of old gone away?


DWAM  
#7 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 5:45:50 AM(UTC)
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Hi!

to answer your question, I can tell that Sony RX10 has no overheating at all even for 12 hours in a row. This v1 model can be bought second-hand around $500 and the lens is included. Check the specs... It's a really good solution.

Other "semi pro" camcorders like Canon HF G20/25 will give you a much better image quality and they can aswell be found for around $500.

I don't know your budget for securty cams but I guess it's hundreds of dollars anyway for a very poor quality in the end...

Maybe you should go for a rental for this "try and see" operation. Did you consider this? I know GoPros can be rent for $15 a day for example... This would give a much nicer image than security cams...

My 2 cts
Guillaume
DWAM  
#8 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 5:53:33 AM(UTC)
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And forgot to mention there are dozens of "family" camcorders like Sony HDR which costs less than $200 and can do a pretty decent job.
Second-hand for this is usually around $100 or even less.
DWAM  
#9 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 6:00:39 AM(UTC)
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And regarding capture cards I lately found a chinese clone of Magewell HDMI dongle at 59 euro
https://www.amazon.fr/Di...id%C3%A9o/dp/B01I0C5ZYU/

Might be available in your country too and other similar models.
nashenden  
#10 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 6:50:31 AM(UTC)
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DWAM wrote:
And regarding capture cards I lately found a chinese clone of Magewell HDMI dongle at 59 euro
https://www.amazon.fr/Di...id%C3%A9o/dp/B01I0C5ZYU/


I was about to reply to others above that it was the capture cost per channel that was the big issue- but this may make a difference. I guess you aren't going to get the USB bus bandwidth to have 4 or 5 of these on a single PC system though. PCI based capture is still maybe £200/ $250 per port?

DWAM  
#11 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 7:22:59 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
I guess you aren't going to get the USB bus bandwidth to have 4 or 5 of these on a single PC system though

it depends on the resolution: 1080p no, 720p maybe, 480p yes

Quote:
PCI based capture is still maybe £200/ $250 per port?

BMD Decklink Duo 2 is $500 for 4 ports, so $125 per port.
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nashenden on 2/17/2017(UTC)
nashenden  
#12 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 2:54:57 PM(UTC)
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Quote:
PCI based capture is still maybe £200/ $250 per port?

BMD Decklink Duo 2 is $500 for 4 ports, so $125 per port.


Thats SDI, which then rules out the cheaper consumer cams. The low end of SDI I have seen has colours like a cheap $30 fpv camera ofd a drone!

Whats the bottom end in practical terms for multi channel HDMI in ?
Ittaidv  
#13 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 5:55:36 PM(UTC)
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Most people use cheap converters hdmi > sdi.

We always used this type, and never had any big trouble with them:

https://www.amazon.com/K...words=hdmi+sdi+converter

There's many variations of these actually, some have a green light to indicate if there is an hdmi incoming signal, others start blinking with incoming hdmi signal and some others don't indicate it at all. You have to be lucky to get the good ones, even the same seller might sell you a slightly different model once in a while.

We always take a few spare ones, but some of our oldest ones survived hundreds of gigs without any problem.

In case you don't have electricity closeby, you can use these running of a 5v powerbank with a usb > 5v adapter. They don't consume much, we managed to run one for a week off a 20 000 Mah battery.

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nashenden on 2/17/2017(UTC)
corporatejames  
#14 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 6:12:19 PM(UTC)
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Ittaidv wrote:
Most people use cheap converters hdmi > sdi.

We always used this type, and never had any big trouble with them:

https://www.amazon.com/K...words=hdmi+sdi+converter

There's many variations of these actually, some have a green light to indicate if there is an hdmi incoming signal, others start blinking with incoming hdmi signal and some others don't indicate it at all. You have to be lucky to get the good ones, even the same seller might sell you a slightly different model once in a while.

We always take a few spare ones, but some of our oldest ones survived hundreds of gigs without any problem.

In case you don't have electricity closeby, you can use these running of a 5v powerbank with a usb > 5v adapter. They don't consume much, we managed to run one for a week off a 20 000 Mah battery.



Yeap never had issue with the cheap SDI converters. Have a couple Blackmagic analog to SDI ones now but cheap ones do the job just as well and easier to replace if fail.
But the Blackmagic HDMI to SDI have come down alot in price and much more affordable now including being able to use USB 5v power sources.
nashenden  
#15 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 6:29:33 PM(UTC)
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Found these on Ebay for £20 ($25ish) - I'm amazed I never knew these existed!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/it...d26ee:g:~04AAOSwXeJYFD4j

Ittaidv  
#16 Posted : Friday, February 17, 2017 9:09:28 PM(UTC)
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nashenden wrote:
Found these on Ebay for £20 ($25ish) - I'm amazed I never knew these existed!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/it...d26ee:g:~04AAOSwXeJYFD4j



These are the same ones as the ones I posted, but with some other branding. Good thing here is that they have that little green light. That comes in really handy when you have no image from your sdi cable.

You can immediatly see if your camera is sending a signal and know you don't have to debug further down the line, instead of having to guess where the problem lies.
SpelingMistakes  
#17 Posted : Saturday, February 18, 2017 5:21:35 AM(UTC)
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I think that most of people forget one thing – Quality versus speed (of information)

Quote
Man with a crossbow in the proper position at the proper time’s worth a corps of heavy artillery half an hour late and ten miles down the road from where it should be
Quote

That mean speed and getting info (video/photo) can be crucial and offering some content from different places in right time + in real time can be as good as professional for every reader or viewer especially in today’s Internet time – Didn’t you notices that lot of TV station in today times simply buy rights to use someone else video recorded on a spot – Good choice of time and place is good enough for everybody and lot of people don’t do that with professionally equipment but with old phones (not even new ones)

For instance – If you cover different happening which involve high risk and involve lot of moving running and similar (covering police raids or rick events with hooligans involved or similar) all that with expensive and lot of equipment simply don’t fit – In today’s world when people use their mobile phones to record and share information insisting on quality can be very tricky – They even stream with mobile phones on Facebook and YouTube – Every modern mobile phone in today time can be used like camera with simple software and can be used in vMix – I try that with few phones plus tablets getting them info vMix – Better camera mean better pictures plus you can use Wi-Fi plus you can work with them for a lot of time adding simple power bank

Information is information and it is more important to be delivered on time than in what quality that has been done – 480p is perfectly suited and going to HD or Full HD or 4k and similar is by my idea of work totally unnecessary – In lot of areas of world in today’s time people don’t have access to high speed of internet (download) and not to mention high speed upload

It is better to have 3-4 IP (PoE) cameras to cover something from different angles and to broadcast that in 480p than to have on one and to broadcast from it in Full HD because quality will be ok plus you will offer several different angles – Making that to work on only one person (helmet camera plus additional 2-3 pointing in deferent angles) with vMix and to do broadcast in same time is something to bet in future
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nashenden on 2/18/2017(UTC)
mjgraves  
#18 Posted : Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:59:35 AM(UTC)
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I've occasionally pulled streams from IP cameras into vMix. If they are good quality cameras they can look decent. They're never look as good a proper cameras, but they might be ok for some situations.

For example, if you need to permanently install cameras around a facility they might be ideal. Also you could derive greater benefit from more cameras vs fewer, high-quality cameras.

For example, you might want an in-lane camera on every lane at a swim meet. Put a high-end camera on the wide shot, but use IP cameras with narrow field of view on the lanes. You can power them all from one POE switch.

One thing to be wary of is latency. Any camera that's encoding into H264/5 is going to deliver video more delayed than an SDI or HDI output.
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nashenden on 2/18/2017(UTC)
nashenden  
#19 Posted : Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:47:22 PM(UTC)
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I'm glad the two guys above see it the same way as me - do it cheaply or not at all... I'd go with cheaply! On the specific of latency, is there a way to sync IP/ non IP cameras? In the old days what would be a delay line?
mjgraves  
#20 Posted : Tuesday, February 21, 2017 7:36:17 PM(UTC)
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nashenden wrote:
I'm glad the two guys above see it the same way as me - do it cheaply or not at all... I'd go with cheaply! On the specific of latency, is there a way to sync IP/ non IP cameras? In the old days what would be a delay line?


Not all IP cameras are created equal. Some make better video than others. My experience with sub-$100 cameras has not been good. The Grandstream units I prefer are in the $140-$180 range for a fixed lens, non-PTZ camera. Over at the ipcamtalk.com forum,s I've seen some nice things said about Dahua cameras. Also not the cheapest.

If you use H264 encoding the IP cameras are going to introduce a couple of seconds of delay. That's just how H264 works, on groups of frames. The I-frame interval can be several seconds.

You can minimize the delay by opting for MJPEG compression, but that drives up the bandwidth requirement.
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