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mashynewie2  
#1 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 5:03:04 AM(UTC)
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NDI Cloud is now available for Windows. This means you can install software on all your vMix machines and link them together over the Internet.

(ie. All vMix inputs are available for use on all your vMix machines worldwide).

The website mentions you need a minimum of 2mbit/s per stream so obviously this software does all the encoding etc.

Windows Info - http://ndi.cloud/cgi-bin...m/YaBB.pl?num=1486900445

NDI Cloud Info - http://www.sienna-tv.com/ndi/ndirelay.html
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stigaard on 2/14/2017(UTC)
DWAM  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 5:57:33 AM(UTC)
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Really interesting...

Quote:
NDI.Cloud uses high quality interframe compression to reduce the bandwidth per HD stream to as low as 2MBit/sec, whilst supporting up to 20MBit/sec for perceptually lossless compression. You select the maximum stream bandwidth for each site.


How does that happen? Does it mean we have to install a codec variant or some sort of softwares to use your solution?

I also understand it is a proprietary cloud solution... But no information regarding your CDN infrastructure...

Any chance to buy the server software?

TIA,
Guillaume
zenvideo  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 6:33:50 AM(UTC)
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DWAM wrote:
How does that happen? Does it mean we have to install a codec variant or some sort of softwares to use your solution?

I think Mark said they use variable bit-rate H264 (or similar) to bridge from NDI to the video that passes over the internet, so presumably that transcoding process is included in the NDI Cloud software that you'd install at either end (at each end-point).
DWAM  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:33:49 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
I think Mark said they use variable bit-rate H264 (or similar) to bridge from NDI to the video that passes over the internet, so presumably that transcoding process is included in the NDI Cloud software that you'd install at either end (at each end-point).


I wish this will not increase latency to much, otherwise main interest vanishes and better use other solutions like unicast streaming which doesn't cost anything...
zenvideo  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:00:31 AM(UTC)
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The impression I got was that one of the most significant contributions to latency would be the internet itself, particularly for international links. I think the concept is to provide such links with the convenience of working with them in a similar way to other local NDI sources, rather than out-and-out lowest possible latency.
kane  
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 10:37:25 AM(UTC)
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I've tested this with Mark, in fact we just tried out the Windows version this weekend between London and Chicago.

NDI.cloud manages the connections over public internet between locations. From a NDI end user standpoint, it is no different that using NDI. You open applications and NDI sources are available, just like other local NDI applications. It's pretty awesome that the user experience is not any different.

It does increase latency, but not anywhere close to what streaming would be. I don't have exact number, but I would say a few seconds at most. It is H.264 compression, image quality depends on the bandwidth, which is adjustable. While the management is centralized, the connections between locations are point to point.

Kane Peterson
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mjgraves on 2/14/2017(UTC), DWAM on 2/14/2017(UTC), stigaard on 2/15/2017(UTC)
DWAM  
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 12:38:37 PM(UTC)
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Any information on the price for this?
Maximus  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 5:44:19 PM(UTC)
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I have been waiting with bated breath for this feature to be available. How can it be tested and/or purchased?

Maxi
Mathijs  
#9 Posted : Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:53:55 PM(UTC)
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A few seconds at most is already a lot. That will be at least 4 seconds of silence between question and answer in a crosstalk situation. So I would really like to know the exact numbers.
DWAM  
#10 Posted : Wednesday, February 15, 2017 3:56:17 AM(UTC)
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@Mathijs: Yep that's my point

Quote:
The impression I got was that one of the most significant contributions to latency would be the internet itself

I doubt that Martin... I have 100ms latency from Bordeaux (France) to NYC... 300ms to Beijing...
This is nothing compared to getting "seconds"

Quote:
It does increase latency, but not anywhere close to what streaming would be.

Define "streaming" please Kane... NDI is streaming isn't it?

I think this system, like any other encoder, will use "cache" for streaming to prevent from data loss and probably the receiving client too.

So far the best tools I ever used over the internet, broadcast encoders like ATEME Kyrion or 4G/LTE solutions from Aviwest/LiveU, were 2 seconds behind for the former, 3 sec for the latter. With FFMPEG/VLC, it's possible to get a 2 seconds latency streaming over the internet with Unicast TS (1 sec for the encoder, 1 sec for the receiving player). On a good LAN, 1 sec is possible and reliable (some guys even pretend to do "0" latency)
kane  
#11 Posted : Wednesday, February 15, 2017 4:43:43 AM(UTC)
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DWAM wrote:

Define "streaming" please Kane... NDI is streaming isn't it?

I think this system, like any other encoder, will use "cache" for streaming to prevent data loss and probably the receiving client too.

So far the best tools I ever used over the internet, broadcast encoders like ATEME Kyrion or 4G/LTE solutions from Aviwest/LiveU, were 2 seconds behind for the former, 3 sec for the latter. With FFMPEG/VLC, it's possible to get a 2 seconds latency streaming over the internet with Unicast TS (1 sec for the encoder, 1 sec for the receiving player). On a good LAN, 1 sec is possible and reliable (some guys even pretend to do "0" latency)


The streaming context I was referring to was 'Flash' style streaming. Yes, there are many solutions for streaming, NDI itself being one of them.

Kane Peterson
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DWAM on 2/15/2017(UTC)
livepad  
#12 Posted : Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:03:43 AM(UTC)
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To answer some of the questions posed in this thread:

Data rate : NDI.Cloud supports a range of around 2mBits to 20mBits per stream. Realistically you will need 4 or 5 mBits for simple HD scenes, more for complex HD scenes.

How: NDI.Cloud creates a software defined video network which links NDI.Cloud gateways in each LAN location and uses them to pass NDI signals in each LAN via the internet (as H.264) then back to NDI at the other end. The user just sees remote NDI sources as if they were local.

So - you need an NDI.Cloud Node Gateway computer in each LAN. This can be a Mac, Windows or Ubuntu machine.

There is a full explanation of this in the NDI.Cloud Wiki at http://ndi.cloud

Buying: NDI.Cloud is a service involving a cloud based collaboration server (to configure and connect up your sites) and downloadable Gateway software. It will be free for a public beta period, and once launched a monthly subscription based on the number of sites you have. It will be very affordable for any professional video user. Rather than charging thousands of dollars for a hardware box each end to carry one stream point to point, NDI.Cloud offers a low cost monthly subscription instead which is much less expensive and allows unlimited connections between all of your nodes (subject to available bandwidth and computing power). The infrastructure is software defined so you can 'spin up' new nodes at different locations by installing software on any available computer, even via remote access. This is all exciting new stuff to drive fresh global workflows.

Latency: One objective of NDI.Cloud is to limit latency. We use a very low latency H.264 software encoder, but there is a necessary buffering stage at the receiving end to smooth out the lumpy internet. The final latency is controllable based on your needs of required smoothing and the quality of your internet connection (regular packet loss will require a longer smoothing buffer). In early tests with the buffer set to zero we were able to move video between continents with around half a second latency.

In real use with audio we expect the latency to be between half a second and 2 seconds depending on settings, connection quality and environment.
We are going to recommend a smoothing buffer of around 2-3 times the connection ping-time. If you can accept the odd glitch or dropped frame you can potentially reduce the smoothing buffer to optimise latency. The point is that you have control over all this.

Another important point is that NDI.Cloud will support multicam sources with the same latency so you will be able to backhaul multiple cameras and then switch them elsewhere without worrying about mismatched latencies. The signals are sent from the same box (e.g. a TriCaster 8000) with coherent timestamps, then received by the same NDI.Cloud Node elsewhere which resynchronises the various streams (which have travelled independently over the internet) and they pop out in the LAN with the same relationship to each other.

Also, NDI.Cloud supports fill and key over the internet, something which is not possible with most existing solutions. Also, it can potentially support multichannel audio (its limited to stereo at present, for convenience so we aren't wasting bandwidth on ch 3&4 which are usually empty).

Testing: We are in private beta test at the moment, whilst we file off the loose ends and make sure the service is ready for the huge demand we see. Professional video folks with specific applications, and the networking experience, NDI experience, connectivity and available hardware who would like to contribute to beta testing can apply to join the private beta program. See the forums at http://ndi.cloud for more info.

Finally - the whole point of NDI.Cloud is to extend the seamless NDI experience across the WAN. Its not so much about how its done - more about what the user experiences - all the remote NDI Sources appear in your local NDI popup menu - and that is all you have to worry about. The rest is done invisibly under the hood.

UserPostedImage

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DWAM on 2/15/2017(UTC), mjgraves on 2/15/2017(UTC), Mathijs on 2/15/2017(UTC)
Maximus  
#13 Posted : Wednesday, February 15, 2017 8:48:26 AM(UTC)
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Hi Guys, How do I get an early adopter account? I have requested access for some time now and I would really love to be able to test this out, but so far nothing. Did I miss something?

MAxi
livepad  
#14 Posted : Wednesday, February 15, 2017 10:06:22 AM(UTC)
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Maximus wrote:
Hi Guys, How do I get an early adopter account? I have requested access for some time now and I would really love to be able to test this out, but so far nothing. Did I miss something?

MAxi


Registering your interest adds you to the list for information updates. Eventually all those people will be invited to the public beta phase.
If you are in the category of testers we have mentioned for the current private beta phase, you should email to the address you will find in the NDI.Cloud forums page.

quote:
"Professional video folks with specific applications, and the networking experience, NDI experience, connectivity and available hardware who would like to contribute to beta testing can apply to join the private beta program"
alexandrelinhares1  
#15 Posted : Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:44:02 PM(UTC)
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That would come really handy!!!! Cant wait to come out1

So when do you think will come out?!!
EventorTV  
#16 Posted : Saturday, February 18, 2017 11:41:36 AM(UTC)
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livepad wrote:
Maximus wrote:
Hi Guys, How do I get an early adopter account? I have requested access for some time now and I would really love to be able to test this out, but so far nothing. Did I miss something?

MAxi


Registering your interest adds you to the list for information updates. Eventually all those people will be invited to the public beta phase.
If you are in the category of testers we have mentioned for the current private beta phase, you should email to the address you will find in the NDI.Cloud forums page.

quote:
"Professional video folks with specific applications, and the networking experience, NDI experience, connectivity and available hardware who would like to contribute to beta testing can apply to join the private beta program"


Hi! Tried to register on the forum at NDI.Cloud, but was met with a refusal. Why? Thus it must be?
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