logo

Live Production Software Forums


Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
lael  
#1 Posted : Friday, August 17, 2018 5:02:34 AM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
Now that NDI has multicast functionality - has anyone used NDI out (with multicast enabled in NDI Access Manager) of Vmix for display to multiple screens around a venue?
lael  
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2018 3:45:15 AM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
If vMix had an option to output NDI-HX - What would it take to multicast wirelessly to multiple displays in a venue over wireless with NDI-HX? What would the ideal set up look like, and what are the pitfalls one would be setting themselves up for?
ask  
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2018 5:23:28 AM(UTC)
ask

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/13/2012(UTC)
Posts: 1,161
Australia
Location: Melbourne

Thanks: 220 times
Was thanked: 199 time(s) in 181 post(s)
lael wrote:
If vMix had an option to output NDI-HX - What would it take to multicast wirelessly to multiple displays in a venue over wireless with NDI-HX? What would the ideal set up look like, and what are the pitfalls one would be setting themselves up for?


NDI/HX is for hardware devices only. The question is moot.
lael  
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2018 9:54:44 AM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
Humour me - say we run an HDMI out from vMix into a Connect Spark?
mjgraves  
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 21, 2018 10:23:18 AM(UTC)
mjgraves

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,150
Man
United States
Location: Houston TX

Thanks: 319 times
Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)
If you're considering NDI-HX, just encode to an RTMP stream and reflect it off an NGINX instance. Your own local stream to clients on your LAN. Minimal workload for the NGINX server, it could be a raspberry Pi.

You could use a hardware encoder, but that would likely only serve a few client streams.

There will be some latency, but NDI-HX has latency anyway.

I've considered this sort of thing for on-campus digital signage.
kane  
#6 Posted : Wednesday, August 22, 2018 9:04:43 AM(UTC)
kane

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/24/2016(UTC)
Posts: 331
Location: Chicago, IL

Was thanked: 143 time(s) in 94 post(s)
If you have wired Ethernet running near the displays, you don't have to use NDI-HX, normal NDI® (NDI for compute) will work. All of the switches on the NDI network do need to support IGMP Snooping to use multicast.

If you are looking to do this wireless (shudder), then some other technology is probably an better way to go.

Kane Peterson
NewTek
lael  
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 22, 2018 11:23:32 PM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
NDI over Gigabit LAN would be our ideal. Unfortunately there are no wired ethernet ports in the venues we will be in, or they are on networks that we won't have access to test and configure before we arrive in order to guarantee success. Hence looking for an alternative that is definitely not ideal. Wireless - because we bump in the morning, and bump out that afternoon and need to reduce set up time. Running cable takes time and needs to be taped down / secured for WHS reasons and would be some quite long runs.

At the moment the tentative plan is a point to point or point to multipoint set up from a central distribution pole to 4 displays using something like a https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/liteap-ac/ as the base and https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/nanostation-ac/ or https://www.ubnt.com/airmax/nanobeam-ac-gen2/ as the receivers (probably a 1-2 setup). Or go straight for a 1-1 ptp nanobeam to nanobeam setup. We have some concerns around using something rather overpowered for basketball size court(s) locations, and of course potential interference between each link.

Kane - if you have advice on alternative options I'd be happy to have some leads to chase down.



DWAM  
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2018 3:40:21 AM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
YOu did not indicate the most important thing to consider: can you bear latency or do you need absolute realtime?

First, this topic was discussed so many times already on the forum, don't ask for alternatives, go read them... It's your need, not our duty...

Second, planning on using NDI on a network you do not own and control is pure madness. You might get lucky from time to time but very unlikely

Third, why NDI? Is there any particular reason that makes it mandatory?
So far, NDI is not ideal for distribution due to its technical requirements that makes it the most expensive protocol to use.

Fourth, if you're to use NDI|HX, why on Earth would you pay for an encoder that multicasts H.264 when FFMPEG/VLC/etc do the same for free with more control over image quality, encoding parameters and so on?
I understand you find it "cool" and trendy but in terms of IP Video the world has not waited for NDI|HX. I think I multicast H.264 for at least 7 or maybe 8 years...

Guillaume
thanks 1 user thanked DWAM for this useful post.
mjgraves on 8/23/2018(UTC)
elvis55  
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2018 4:54:08 AM(UTC)
elvis55

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/17/2017(UTC)
Posts: 412
Switzerland
Location: Luzern - Schweiz

Thanks: 61 times
Was thanked: 55 time(s) in 49 post(s)
mjgraves  
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2018 10:33:59 AM(UTC)
mjgraves

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 7/1/2015(UTC)
Posts: 1,150
Man
United States
Location: Houston TX

Thanks: 319 times
Was thanked: 263 time(s) in 233 post(s)
DWAM wrote:

Second, planning on using NDI on a network you do not own and control is pure madness. You might get lucky from time to time but very unlikely.


+100. This is wisdom.

Third, why NDI? Is there any particular reason that makes it mandatory?
So far, NDI is not ideal for distribution due to its technical requirements that makes it the most expensive protocol to use.

DWAM wrote:

Fourth, if you're to use NDI|HX, why on Earth would you pay for an encoder that multicasts H.264 when FFMPEG/VLC/etc do the same for free with more control over image quality, encoding parameters and so on?


Again, +100. Newtek Spark is basically an tweaked RTMP encoder.
stevespaw  
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2018 10:40:40 AM(UTC)
stevespaw

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/12/2015(UTC)
Posts: 480
Man
Location: Kansas City, MO USA

Thanks: 149 times
Was thanked: 75 time(s) in 57 post(s)
Why not just use ffmpeg to encode a multicast Transport stream right from your vMix DirectShow output? I do it all of the time.


But you still have possible issues with WiFi and Multicast being enabled on the network you don't control.

Steve
DWAM  
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 23, 2018 12:51:42 PM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
Quote:
But you still have possible issues with WiFi

When wireless devices are involved I usually multicast 2 streams: one 1080 with pretty high bitrate for wired devices (depending on the targets capacity) + one safe with very low requirements (i.e. 480p @ 750 Kbits) for smartphones or crappily connected computers
lael  
#13 Posted : Friday, August 24, 2018 10:40:18 AM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
DWAM wrote:
YOu did not indicate the most important thing to consider: can you bear latency or do you need absolute realtime?

First, this topic was discussed so many times already on the forum, don't ask for alternatives, go read them... It's your need, not our duty...

Second, planning on using NDI on a network you do not own and control is pure madness. You might get lucky from time to time but very unlikely

Third, why NDI? Is there any particular reason that makes it mandatory?
So far, NDI is not ideal for distribution due to its technical requirements that makes it the most expensive protocol to use.

Fourth, if you're to use NDI|HX, why on Earth would you pay for an encoder that multicasts H.264 when FFMPEG/VLC/etc do the same for free with more control over image quality, encoding parameters and so on?
I understand you find it "cool" and trendy but in terms of IP Video the world has not waited for NDI|HX. I think I multicast H.264 for at least 7 or maybe 8 years...

Guillaume


We'd prefer as close to realtime as possible.

We set up our own network - that's actually the purpose of the post. Working out the practical limits of wifi to see what might work.
NDI - only for low latency. But - you're right, if NDI-HX, then multicasting h.264 is likely a better option - what's the lowest latency you've introduced doing this?
lael  
#14 Posted : Friday, August 24, 2018 6:21:16 PM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
DWAM  
#15 Posted : Friday, August 24, 2018 9:29:49 PM(UTC)
DWAM

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/20/2014(UTC)
Posts: 2,721
Man
France
Location: Bordeaux, France

Thanks: 243 times
Was thanked: 794 time(s) in 589 post(s)
Quote:
what's the lowest latency you've introduced doing this?

Optimized settings 300ms
Safe settings 500/1000ms
With FFMPEG
thanks 1 user thanked DWAM for this useful post.
lael on 8/26/2018(UTC)
elvis55  
#16 Posted : Saturday, August 25, 2018 7:44:05 AM(UTC)
elvis55

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/17/2017(UTC)
Posts: 412
Switzerland
Location: Luzern - Schweiz

Thanks: 61 times
Was thanked: 55 time(s) in 49 post(s)
Hello,

Sorry for my english. (Translator)

I once tested RTSP in Vmix. See video.
Left input from camera, right stream RTSP, buffer 100, low latency mode.
Have a latency of 300 milliseconds measured.

with Video Encoder Ethernet Port

and NanoStation AC NS-5ACL

Had already made test with WLAN Bridge LBE-5AC-Gen2
Point to point 3000 meters. Latrncy about 300 - 400 milliseconds

Greeting
thanks 1 user thanked elvis55 for this useful post.
lael on 8/26/2018(UTC)
lael  
#17 Posted : Sunday, August 26, 2018 9:51:24 PM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
Elvis,

That's amazingly helpful - thankyou! So - to check I understand:

In the Youtube video - you have camera - video encoder - ethernet - vmix with a delay of ~300ms?
or - was it camera - video encoder - (wireless) - NS-5ACL - vmix with a delay of 300ms?


And in the past you have used:
camera - video encoder (hdmi) - ethernet - NS-5ACL - LBE-5AC-Gen2 with 300-400ms latency?
or - was it camera - video encoder -(wireless) - LBE-5AC-Gen2
over 3Km! nice.

Thanks!

elvis55 wrote:
Hello,

Sorry for my english. (Translator)

I once tested RTSP in Vmix. See video.
Left input from camera, right stream RTSP, buffer 100, low latency mode.
Have a latency of 300 milliseconds measured.

with Video Encoder Ethernet Port

and NanoStation AC NS-5ACL

Had already made test with WLAN Bridge LBE-5AC-Gen2
Point to point 3000 meters. Latrncy about 300 - 400 milliseconds

Greeting

elvis55  
#18 Posted : Monday, August 27, 2018 6:04:16 AM(UTC)
elvis55

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 3/17/2017(UTC)
Posts: 412
Switzerland
Location: Luzern - Schweiz

Thanks: 61 times
Was thanked: 55 time(s) in 49 post(s)


Hello

In Youtube video I have: Camera - HDMI Cable - to 2 Port HDMI Splitter - Output 1> HDMI Vmix Input 1.
HDMI Splitter Output 2> with HDMI cable to Video Encoder. From Video Encoder with Ethernet Cable to NanoStation AC NS-5ACL Station, Point-to-Point to AC NS-5ACL Accespoint. From AC NS-5ACL Accespoint with Ethernet Cable to Ethernet Switch, from Ethernet Switch to Ethernet Cable in PC. Input 2 - Vmix stream RTSP, buffer 100, low latency mode.

And in the past you used:
Camera - Video Encoder (HDMI) - Ethernet -LBE-5AC-Gen2 -Point to Point - LBE-5AC-Gen2 with 300-400ms latency?
over 3km!

Greeting
thanks 1 user thanked elvis55 for this useful post.
lael on 8/28/2018(UTC)
lael  
#19 Posted : Tuesday, August 28, 2018 9:32:13 PM(UTC)
lael

Rank: Advanced Member

Groups: Registered
Joined: 2/18/2017(UTC)
Posts: 75

Thanks: 22 times
Was thanked: 4 time(s) in 4 post(s)
Amazing - thankyou!

elvis55 wrote:


Hello

In Youtube video I have: Camera - HDMI Cable - to 2 Port HDMI Splitter - Output 1> HDMI Vmix Input 1.
HDMI Splitter Output 2> with HDMI cable to Video Encoder. From Video Encoder with Ethernet Cable to NanoStation AC NS-5ACL Station, Point-to-Point to AC NS-5ACL Accespoint. From AC NS-5ACL Accespoint with Ethernet Cable to Ethernet Switch, from Ethernet Switch to Ethernet Cable in PC. Input 2 - Vmix stream RTSP, buffer 100, low latency mode.

And in the past you used:
Camera - Video Encoder (HDMI) - Ethernet -LBE-5AC-Gen2 -Point to Point - LBE-5AC-Gen2 with 300-400ms latency?
over 3km!

Greeting


Users browsing this topic
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.