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edgemedia  
#1 Posted : Thursday, June 1, 2017 11:33:22 PM(UTC)
edgemedia

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Let me preface this by saying I love vMix. And, I was really excited about an alternative to the limitations of Zoom and Skype. Unfortunately I learned that I should have used one of the latter services and saved myself a giant headache, to say nothing of the loss of a new, high profile client.

You see, this evening (the date of this post), I was to set up and run what amounted to a virtual conference call, with six guests, which we planned to live stream to their FB page. I spent much time crafting framed backdrops to match their brand and carefully cropped each of the vMixCall inputs to correspond with each guest and their overlay. I even had the organizer and myself as guests set up so that we could control the action yet our audio/video would not see the recording or live feed (think: IFB).

We tested this yesterday with minor but mixed results; We only had four bodies to sub in and, for the most part, they could connect, but occasionally they could not, that is, to the same number (password) they just connected to. I, on the other hand, could connect, via a separate PC, to any of the numbers each time I tried so I stupidly wrote that off as an anomaly.

Day of show however, I found out just how wrong we were in taking that project on. Of all eight participants, only four were finally able to connect. Myself, the organizer, her boss, and one other individual. The others, though I could often see that they were connected, I would would never receive audio or video in their input. Sometimes disconnecting and reconnecting / changing browsers / etc. would bring guests up, but not with anything that I would call consistency. Plus, there was no shortage of freezes, audio cutouts and ultimately, drop offs- to say nothing of the variables that one would expect from remote guests (poor connections, poor cameras/mics, not using headphones, not having their video/mics turned on, etc).

After more than an hour I stopped the presses and switched to Zoom. But, then, as you can imagine, all of my hard work was for naught. My templates were toast and my overlays were useless and the limitations of Zoom became quite apparent yet again (Interface changes as guests join/drop, stupid yellow box for active speaker etc.) - But, I had to go live. Unfortunately, my troubles didn't end there.

Even as an admin of their FB page, for the first time I faced a sudden inability to stream as an admin of their page (error 200?). In fact, I could not even change the FB log-in in the vMix Stream dialog box in my vain attempt to use one of their admin log-ins to re-attempt a stream (still scratching my head on that one).

So, after all of that, the ultimate disaster night was complete. I ended up calling it off and apologizing for everyone's wasted time.

I could be wrong, and probably put too much pressure and faith in the new add-on, but I can't help but think Call is not ready for prime-time.

I was willing to work around the inability to have a full screen guest image in a Call input (what's that about?) and, was willing to figure out a way to get Call guests to participate in the IFB out of my mixer, but inconsistency of connection (sans standard internet/guest issues) I cannot live with.

Looks like I'm stuck with the fall-backs (Zooms/Skypes) for now- unless any of you have a viable alternative to what I have described, or, can point out any wrong doing in my implementation of Call. Otherwise, sorry for the wall of text and thanks for listening to my rant.

Current issue questions:

1) Why is the connectivity to a Call number hit-or-miss? (Is it likely vMix? vimixcall.com? Or am I alone here?)
2) Did I perhaps miss a list of preferred browsers/settings to use for vMix Call?
3) Why is there a bounding box around the video of a Call Guest input?
4) Why are there buttons to Host/Join when setting up a call input, when simply ignoring that choice creates a valid number (PW) for the call input?
5) Why does choosing "Host a Call" change the number?
6) Have I missed a easy way to re-instate the original number for a specific input?
7) Why doesn't the input name change back to the number when a caller drops off? (it should imo)
8) Are there plans to add a method of helping individual guests to connect to Call? (pre-compiled email invite similar to Zoom?)

DWAM  
#2 Posted : Friday, June 2, 2017 3:57:49 AM(UTC)
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I'm sorry you experienced this but vMix is not to blame here, vMix is ready for prime time. If you are.

The questions you're asking NOW reveal you were not ready. These questions are the most part answered in the documentation, have been discussed in this forum or have been addressed in the demo videos produced for vMixCall after release. Besides many shows have been made by users using the exact same things you wanted. An example, this was live last night :


I'm not saying this is easy. Such a production requires a lot of testing, there are requirements you cannot forget about especially about browsers... But if you don't know the difference between "host a call" and "join a call", who's to blame?

Again I'm very sorry, but all the problems you're talking about :
are not vMix related
- going fullscreen is possible
- there are no bounding box on call inputs (unless you add some)
- IFB or whatever you call that is possible and works well
or are known situations with documented info to avoid them
- re-instante a call number
- browser compatibility list
- management of call numbers
etc...

You want a pre-compiled email invite similar to Zoom? I did my own, why didn't you? How could vMix know whom to address an email to ? How could vMix know my guest doesn't speak english ?

As of your FB login issue, it's been discussed here. It's not an issue, it's a known situation. there are workarounds and once again, this has to be tested and validated long before going live.

So before you conclude that vMixCall doesn't work or is not ready for primetime, please take time to experiment more, study the documentation, search the forum and validate the answers/workarounds given.

Live production is not an easy job and it's fortunate because I don't want vMix to do MY job. It's just a tool, a pretty good one.

Guillaume
IceStream  
#3 Posted : Friday, June 2, 2017 8:01:56 AM(UTC)
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@ DWAM

While I agree with everything you say, in all fairness to edgemedia, there has been a lot of hype surrounding vMixCall as the "trouble free" solution as a replacement for Skype and/or Zoom integration of calls into a live streaming production and perhaps a misperception that it is not susceptible to external factors that can affect it's performance or that it should be thoroughly TESTED before jumping in with both feet...

EDIT: Also note that the WOLS gang (link above to Streaming Idiots Special) use a combination of Zoom, vMixCall and "TeamSpeak" in their production (perhaps Giles can pipe in on the exact workflow, which is obviously not problem free). To the best of my knowledge, Jim Jacobs was on a vMixCall to Jon, which IMHO, was the most problematic connection of all the "guests". Personally, I think it's important to document the issues that users are having with vMixCall, whether vMix related or not, in order to help make it an even better solution as everyone moves forward.
Just my thoughts.

Ice
edgemedia  
#4 Posted : Friday, June 2, 2017 9:14:44 AM(UTC)
edgemedia

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DWAM wrote:
I'm sorry you experienced this but vMix is not to blame here, vMix is ready for prime time. If you are.

The questions you're asking NOW reveal you were not ready. These questions are the most part answered in the documentation, have been discussed in this forum or have been addressed in the demo videos produced for vMixCall after release. Besides many shows have been made by users using the exact same things you wanted.


I admit that I went for too much too soon and should have pushed back until we were better prepared (succumbed to pressure from above), however, the bulk of my problem was the inability of my guests to simply connect.

That's not exactly a goal that takes much and it seems unlikely that it was due to a lack of knowledge of set up. At its core you simply add a vMixCall input, have your guest visit vmixcall.com, enter their name and the number at the top of the input, and they connect. My experience was that simple procedure connected inconsistently, and that is the base of my complaint.


DWAM wrote:
I'm not saying this is easy. Such a production requires a lot of testing, there are requirements you cannot forget about especially about browsers... But if you don't know the difference between "host a call" and "join a call", who's to blame?


I certainly understand the difference, I merely wondered why a number was already established before choosing. If it's in the documentation, I'll check that out.

DWAM wrote:
Again I'm very sorry, but all the problems you're talking about :
are not vMix related
- going fullscreen is possible
- there are no bounding box on call inputs (unless you add some)
- IFB or whatever you call that is possible and works well
or are known situations with documented info to avoid them
- re-instante a call number
- browser compatibility list
- management of call numbers
etc...


I was referring to "issues" I had, not categorizing them as vMix problems. That is to say that I believe there are solutions, I just listed them in hopes that they would be answered here. For instance, I haven't yet been able to see a caller full screen since I've been testing. In other words, their video input always comes in at about 75% of screen size surrounded by black (the 'bounding box' effect). Sure, I can zoom in and manipulate but that's tedious. My experiment with settings and research turned up zero on a solution to that.

- IFB (Interruptible foldback) using an external mixer? That would be fun to find a working solution. Is it in the documentation or has vMix or StreamingIdiots already published a video on that?

DWAM wrote:
You want a pre-compiled email invite similar to Zoom? I did my own, why didn't you? How could vMix know whom to address an email to ? How could vMix know my guest doesn't speak english ?


Of course, I too compiled my own and as for the address? You're right, would be impossible for vMix to know, no problem- When you invite a participant in Zoom, you add it yourself. Not as big a deal as having to write down all eight passwords, associating them with individuals and then compiling your emails. I'm a sucker for automation. As for the language of the recipient? Hadn't considered, but being mono-linguistic myself, would probably not worry. Perhaps selfish, but if other automated systems don't seem to be bothered, nor would I.

DWAM wrote:
As of your FB login issue, it's been discussed here. It's not an issue, it's a known situation. there are workarounds and once again, this has to be tested and validated long before going live.


I'm not certain if I'm happy to know this or not. Having made the same type of change-up many times going live with no previous trouble, I did not expect any this time. Certainly further research on my part is required.

DWAM wrote:
So before you conclude that vMixCall doesn't work or is not ready for primetime, please take time to experiment more, study the documentation, search the forum and validate the answers/workarounds given.

Live production is not an easy job and it's fortunate because I don't want vMix to do MY job. It's just a tool, a pretty good one.

Guillaume


And I agree that vMix is a good tool, a great one in fact. As I said, I love it. My beef was with Call specifically, and what seemed like trouble with a very basic procedure (above). That is the portion I deemed not fit for prime time. Thanks for your response.
DWAM  
#5 Posted : Friday, June 2, 2017 10:58:59 AM(UTC)
DWAM

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Quote:
the bulk of my problem was the inability of my guests to simply connect.

Unless you give technical information, there is no way to help. There are many possible reasons:
- bandwidth
- corporate firewall
- OS
- device
- browser
- etc...
vMixCall doesn't work for anyone in any technical context, that's a fact!
Quote:
I merely wondered why a number was already established before choosing

It's just the way it works
Quote:
fullscreen

this is certainly due to your input settings > source aspect ratio
http://www.vmix.com/help...nputSettingsGeneral.html
Quote:
IFB (Interruptible foldback)

I'm not exactly sure what you call IFB (sorry I'm French) but I think it means to be able to talk to guests or crew without being recorded/streamed in the production. As the case may be, as a matter of fact, I gave a solution to do this lately right here in this forum (not exactly your use case but quite):
https://forums.vmix.com/...ts&m=39762#post39762
There are many other topics addressing this issue too

As of Zoom/FB points, I prefer not to reply

So again, very sorry for you. Don't want to sound sarcastic or offensive (which I'm told sometimes) but mastering vMix and mastering live production requires a lot of work and knowledge and it's not as easy as it may give the impression. And as @Ice said, I'm not sure the hype about vMixCall (and the way it is perceived) is a good thing because the more features vMix has, the more complex it goes, especially when dealing with connections over the internet.

My 2 cts. Best regards
Guillaume
mjgraves  
#6 Posted : Friday, June 2, 2017 1:01:39 PM(UTC)
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The video conferencing realm has faced the reality of WebRTC-based services for several years. WebRTC brings the promise "zero installation and configuration." Just use your trusty browser.

While it eliminates some headaches, it introduces others. An installable app tends to be more stable, doesn't get updated as often. Browsers are updated quite routinely, and sometimes those updates break things.

Other matters, like bandwidth, latency, reliability, audio & video I/O, all remain serious considerations.

Do you advise your remote participants about minimum PC specs? Headsets? Against using Wi-Fi? Proper lighting? If you do, do they act on that advice? I find that quite often they don't.

vMix Call makes ad hoc remote participation much easier. It lets you define the bandwidth used for each link. It makes all the messy audio mix-minus headaches simply go away. That alone is a huge step forward.

That said, by no means does it make it "easy." It solves some problems, but not all of them. It trades one set of concerns for another.

IMHO, a little further refinement in the WebRTC client would help a lot. The ability to select devices on-the-fly and share a screen, perhaps in addition to the camera, would be fantastic. That would really help non-technical remote participants. It would make an already powerful tool even better.
admin  
#7 Posted : Friday, June 2, 2017 1:14:13 PM(UTC)
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edgemedia,

Sorry you didn't have a good first experience with vMix Call.
Based on your report, i would say some of the issues experienced are due to network congestion.

In the Zoom case, it combines multiple feeds at the server side into a single video the is then streamed to your application.
This means it uses a lot less bandwidth, but is also not as flexible as the quality of each callers video window is quite low on its own
unless you select it fullscreen in which case you can't see the other callers.

vMix Call by comparison is all point to point, you are establishing separate high quality calls between all your guests, so if a high bandwidth
connection is not used, then adding more than one guest at a time is going to cause problems, which I suspect was the case here.

The other questions raised are mostly answered by our tutorial video and documentation which can be found below:

http://www.vmix.com/help19/VideoCall.html


If you would like us to investigate further why a caller was unable to connect, drop us an email with the call password used
and we will be able to lookup the logs and see what happened (though I suspect its a network issue as a result of multiple streams vs only one with zoom).

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Martin
vMix
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edgemedia on 6/13/2017(UTC), Rivercrest on 6/28/2018(UTC)
edgemedia  
#8 Posted : Tuesday, June 13, 2017 12:08:24 PM(UTC)
edgemedia

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Thanks for your reply Martin,

Yes, I do believe that congestion was part of the problem. I'll continue to work on that.

There is still the problem I am having with the input. Every vmixcall input shows as follows:

UserPostedImage

Doesn't matter what the source is (laptop/phone cam), it is never full screen. Couldn't find anything in the documentation about this and have tried several settings with no luck.

Surely it's something simple I'm missing, yes?



UPDATE: I just found out why, my "Output Size" was not set at 1920x1080. All is good.

Thanks!
mgrayeb  
#9 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 1:19:02 AM(UTC)
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@edgemedia, I'm new to vMix Call. Can you please explain what "network congestion" means in this case? Was the issue at your end because you didn't have enough upload and/or download bandwidth?

Does the amount of upload/download bandwidth increase for all vMix Call participants based on the number of participants, or does the increase in bandwidth only apply to the host?

Have you had experiences with vMix Call since and can you share how they went?

I've been using Wirecast with Zoom but am interested in vMix Call.

Thanks.
rowby  
#10 Posted : Thursday, March 8, 2018 11:16:57 AM(UTC)
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Hello Everyone,

Perhaps we should start a Checklist of vMix Call best practices.

I’ll start...

Before going live, maybe a half hour (or a day before — but do same checklist the day of stream) before the show bring each partipant online and ask (and confirm). Also email an appropriate checklist of same to each participant

1). Ask are you hard wired to the internet or are you on WiFi.
2). Are you using cell phone Please do not use cell phone if possible.
3.). If you are joining us from home or small office, please ask your associates or family members not to watch the live stream. (Eating up bandwidth)
4). What is your phone number in case I need to call you directly in case of technical issues
5). Check out their lighting. As I understand bad lighting can cause bandwidth issues
6). Remind them not to play any music in background. Copyright issues. I once had to tell clients at a dental office to turn off their office background music.
7). Listen for noisy environment. Fans, air conditioning. Use Solo audio button for this.
8). What browser are you using — and follow up questions
9). Use headset not computer speakers. I once sent client, a week in advance, a link to amazon to my preferred inexpensive headset. And they bought it.
10. Please watch your language,if appropriate. No vulgarities , if appropriate. Your microphone is live at all times. So is your camera. If you pick your nose it will be seen by millions.
11) You give your permission for this video to be recorded and streamed on demand in the future.
12). . Etc

...Rowby.
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mgrayeb on 3/19/2018(UTC)
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